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AnthonyC

Bye Bye Boiling

28 posts in this topic

I've decided that I'm not going to boil my lme/dme any longer.  I'm doing this for a few reasons:

1. It takes forever to boil w/electric stoves

2. Paranoid about caramelization

3. Possibility of caramelization giving me that ole extract twang

 

From now on it's steep, boil, add fermentables, simmer for 60mins & do hop additions as required by recipe.  

 

Any idea how this is going to effect the final product?  Thanks in advance. :)

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48 minutes ago, Nickfixit said:

Cooper's AU recipes in general do not boil their extracts. So you are probably onto  a good thing. They just use hot water.

As long as everything stays sanitary, I just don't see the point.  Guess I'll know in about 8wks.

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Recipes for HMEs and recipes for LME and hops can't be looked at the same.  You probably want to do some research on the temperatures necessary for hops to have the effect you want them to have.  

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1 hour ago, RickBeer said:

Recipes for HMEs and recipes for LME and hops can't be looked at the same.  You probably want to do some research on the temperatures necessary for hops to have the effect you want them to have.  

Good advice!  I've never looked at in terms of temperature, only time. 

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Cooper's often do the hop extraction separately like a hop tea as well as having some that are boiled and even hot steep after the boil. However, they do not mention the effect of this, it is only made as part of the recipe. They are an interesting recipe set and often different in technique from the Mr Beer.

It is interesting to see their IPA variant. They take the IPA HME and use different  origin malts for 4 different IPAs. (AU/NZ/UK/US) But the thing that interests me here it that some hops they put in at start of fermentation after wort is cool;  some they add after 3 or 6 days fermentation. I am not sure of the rationale or if they just happened to do this and they liked the result.

 

e.g. Example of difference  in recipe style: Cold steep grains, small malt add, 15 min hop boil, 30 min hop steep, add remaining malt and HME, ferment 3 days, add more hops dry.

Ashes Ale.

http://store.coopers.com.au/recipes/index/view/id/9/

STEP 1: The Day Before

Place the Crystal Malt Grain in a plastic zip-lock sandwich bag and crack it using a rolling pin.  Line a pot (at least 4 litres) with a mesh cleaning cloth (pulled straight from the pack), then add the cracked grain and 2 litres of cold water.
Fit the lid and sit in the fridge for 24hrs.

 

  • Step_2_-brew_7.png

    STEP 2: Brew Day

    Remove from the fridge then gather up the corners of the mesh cloth and lift, allowing the liquid to drain from the grains back into the pot.
    Place the strained liquid onto the stovetop, add about 250g of Light Dry Malt and bring to the boil - be sure to keep close watch to avoid boilover!
    Once boiling, add 25g of East Kent Goldings Hops and boil for 15mins.
    Remove from the heat, add 25g of Bramling Cross hops and let steep for 30mins.
    Add the remaining Light Dry Malt to a drained sanitised fermenting vessel and add 2 litres of hot water.  Immediately pick the fermenting vessel up and swirl the contents until dissolved (approx 15 secs) - this method minimises clumping.
    Strain the steeped wort into the fermenting vessel and mix in the Australian Pale Ale beer kit.
    Fill to 18 litres with cold water, stir well and check the brew temperature.
    Top up to the 21 litre mark with warm or cold water (refrigerated if necessary) to get as close to 20C as possible.
    Sprinkle the dry yeast over the surface, fit the lid and try to ferment in the 18C – 20C range.

    After about 3 days-
    Add the remaining Bramling Cross hops to the brew (we suggest wrapping in a mesh cleaning cloth pulled straight from the packet).

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25 minutes ago, Nickfixit said:

Cooper's often do the hop extraction separately like a hop tea as well as having some that are boiled and even hot steep after the boil. However, they do not mention the effect of this, it is only made as part of the recipe. They are an interesting recipe set and often different in technique from the Mr Beer.

It is interesting to see their IPA variant. They take the IPA HME and use different  origin malts for 4 different IPAs. (AU/NZ/UK/US) But the thing that interests me here it that some hops they put in at start of fermentation after wort is cool;  some they add after 3 or 6 days fermentation. I am not sure of the rationale or if they just happened to do this and they liked the result.

 

e.g. Example of difference  in recipe style: Cold steep grains, small malt add, 15 min hop boil, 30 min hop steep, add remaining malt and HME, ferment 3 days, add more hops dry.

Ashes Ale.

http://store.coopers.com.au/recipes/index/view/id/9/

STEP 1: The Day Before

Place the Crystal Malt Grain in a plastic zip-lock sandwich bag and crack it using a rolling pin.  Line a pot (at least 4 litres) with a mesh cleaning cloth (pulled straight from the pack), then add the cracked grain and 2 litres of cold water.
Fit the lid and sit in the fridge for 24hrs.

 

  • Step_2_-brew_7.png

    STEP 2: Brew Day

    Remove from the fridge then gather up the corners of the mesh cloth and lift, allowing the liquid to drain from the grains back into the pot.
    Place the strained liquid onto the stovetop, add about 250g of Light Dry Malt and bring to the boil - be sure to keep close watch to avoid boilover!
    Once boiling, add 25g of East Kent Goldings Hops and boil for 15mins.
    Remove from the heat, add 25g of Bramling Cross hops and let steep for 30mins.
    Add the remaining Light Dry Malt to a drained sanitised fermenting vessel and add 2 litres of hot water.  Immediately pick the fermenting vessel up and swirl the contents until dissolved (approx 15 secs) - this method minimises clumping.
    Strain the steeped wort into the fermenting vessel and mix in the Australian Pale Ale beer kit.
    Fill to 18 litres with cold water, stir well and check the brew temperature.
    Top up to the 21 litre mark with warm or cold water (refrigerated if necessary) to get as close to 20C as possible.
    Sprinkle the dry yeast over the surface, fit the lid and try to ferment in the 18C – 20C range.

    After about 3 days-
    Add the remaining Bramling Cross hops to the brew (we suggest wrapping in a mesh cleaning cloth pulled straight from the packet).

Good stuff, Nick.  Thanks!!

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I am thinking that the hop treatment changes the amount of bitterness or other compounds that come out of the hop.

I think that  adding BEFORE fermentation rather than after will probably emphasise the heavier oils and some of the lighter ones  being more volatile would tend to be carried off in the fermentation bubbles.

Similarly, doing the dry hop AFTER the main fermentation would retain the more volatile oils into the bottled product.

So there should be a noticeable difference between these 2 treatments.

Also I think heat (boil and steep) would tend to get more bitterness out although I read the action of boiling does have a chemical effect and get the bittering active (rather than simply dissolving hop compounds).  ( I know when I sterilized hops in a bag with boiling water and let it cool in the water, the liquor was distinctly bitter not just aromatic.)

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To be honest, what I REALLY need to do is pick up an outdoor propane turkey fryer style burners.  I think either Northern Brewers or Midwest Supplies has one that is free after a $125 purchase.

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14 hours ago, AnthonyC said:

To be honest, what I REALLY need to do is pick up an outdoor propane turkey fryer style burners.  I think either Northern Brewers or Midwest Supplies has one that is free after a $125 purchase.

so u have to buy it to get it free?

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23 hours ago, AnthonyC said:

To be honest, what I REALLY need to do is pick up an outdoor propane turkey fryer style burners.  I think either Northern Brewers or Midwest Supplies has one that is free after a $125 purchase.

really? at my shop the Bayou Classic banjo cooker is only $120.00(tax included). it can be found cheaper on line.

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45 minutes ago, Jim Johnson said:

really? at my shop the Bayou Classic banjo cooker is only $120.00(tax included). it can be found cheaper on line.

Getting $125 worth of beer and then getting it for free sounds much better than spending $120 on it and only getting the Bayou Classic Banjo cooker.  Know what I mean, Jim?  

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7 hours ago, Jim Johnson said:

buy local, the more you spend the cheaper it gets.  plus you're keeping the money in your town, better for everybody.

In priciple I do agree with you, but keeping the money in my pocket is better for me and my family and that's my bottom line.

*plus my local guy is a pompous ass!

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6 hours ago, Jim Johnson said:

well if he cuts his own throat what can you do?

Open a satellite here in New York, Jim.  I'll be your BEST customer!  ?

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Electric stoves often have hot spots, and I bet the caramelizing takes place as the DME or LME hits the bottom of the pot as you pour it in. Try a better grade of cookware, that distributes heat more evenly, add slowly and stir constantly. Do you turn off the heat, wait a moment, then add and stir? This should prevent  the malt sugars from "burning".Covering the pot during your hop boil will also allow you to lower the heat source, and still maintain a boil. Just watch for boil over.

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6 hours ago, Brian N. said:

Electric stoves often have hot spots, and I bet the caramelizing takes place as the DME or LME hits the bottom of the pot as you pour it in. Try a better grade of cookware, that distributes heat more evenly, add slowly and stir constantly. Do you turn off the heat, wait a moment, then add and stir? This should prevent  the malt sugars from "burning".Covering the pot during your hop boil will also allow you to lower the heat source, and still maintain a boil. Just watch for boil over.

Brian, yes I did remove from heat and then wait a little while before adding.  I probably will remove from heat and not wait before adding now b/c my hopes are that the wort will stay hot enough to kill any beasties that the lme/dme/hme may be harboring.  I have also tried covering, but still noticed that little "burn spiral" on the bottom of the pot.  I agree 1000% that upgrading to a better grade pot would probably help, but man those suckers are expensive.  Thank you for your response!  I truly do appreciate it!! :)

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Long story - but I acquired a top of the line large pot through a barter. I use it exclusively when my wife is not using it for pasta or sauce! Most chefs prefer gas range tops (but surprisingly electric ovens). Anyway, I'm not sure of the exact temperature, but water just off a boil should be hot enough to kill any unwanted microorganisms. 

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6 hours ago, Brian N. said:

Long story - but I acquired a top of the line large pot through a barter. I use it exclusively when my wife is not using it for pasta or sauce! Most chefs prefer gas range tops (but surprisingly electric ovens). Anyway, I'm not sure of the exact temperature, but water just off a boil should be hot enough to kill any unwanted microorganisms. 

Once again...  Thank you, sir!  I will definitely keep my eyes open for a better grade of pot.  I may get lucky and find a good deal, especially during the upcoming Holiday season.  

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10 hours ago, Brian N. said:

Long story - but I acquired a top of the line large pot through a barter. I use it exclusively when my wife is not using it for pasta or sauce! Most chefs prefer gas range tops (but surprisingly electric ovens). Anyway, I'm not sure of the exact temperature, but water just off a boil should be hot enough to kill any unwanted microorganisms. 

My 2 cents on chefs and ovens....

Gas ovens don't just heat the air if the gas is actually burnt in the oven. They also fill the oven with gas burning byproduct, one of which is water.  Depending on what you are making, the food might not crisp up well in high humidity.  So Chefs prefer an oven that just heats the air. Electric elements in the oven are OK, or any form of oven where the OUTSIDE is heated like wood/coal/gas fired ranges that heat all the cooking areas but vent all the combustion byproducts. Some exceptions are wood fired or where the chef get benefit from smoky smell  or radiant heat to add qualities to the food. 

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On ‎10‎/‎2‎/‎2016 at 9:56 PM, AnthonyC said:

Getting $125 worth of beer and then getting it for free sounds much better than spending $120 on it and only getting the Bayou Classic Banjo cooker.  Know what I mean, Jim?  

I would like to think of it as buying a fryer then getting $120 of free beer to drink. Somehow it seems a better deal. 

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4 hours ago, AnthonyC said:

Once again...  Thank you, sir!  I will definitely keep my eyes open for a better grade of pot.  I may get lucky and find a good deal, especially during the upcoming Holiday season.  

Have you tried Colorado? :)

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