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Newmoon brewer

Coming out from Hibernation

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Hey Guys, I'm finally coming back from hibernation from brewing. Schedule got crazy with another kid and what not with life. Wow have things changed on here in only 7 months!

 

My question is why on earth is MB now stating it takes so long for the beers to be ready to drink? Belgian Blanc for example -

Fermentation Carbonation Bottle Conditioning   Total Brewing Time
3 Weeks 3 Weeks 2 - 4 Weeks =

2 - 3 Months

 

I guess in the past I thought we kind of considered the Carbing and conditioning the same time period? My Blancs were great with 3-4 week fermentation and 2-3 week carb/condition. Did I miss an update on the recipes or is it just a change in the thinking of the beer process?

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Hmm, guess I actually never heard that when I was on the msg board earlier this year. I knew MB was advertising 2 weeks and you had beer or something but the guru's were saying 3-4 for fermenting and at least 3 for conditioning(carbing) depending on the recipe.

 

Rick my question is, maybe I misunderstood you guys the whole time, but I thought the carbing and conditioning step were both the same step?

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I think that Mr. Beer lost a lot of customers b/c they said that the beer would be ready to drink after 3wks conditioning.  Outside of an IPA I have yet to see a beer be at it's optimal flavor after only 3wks of conditioning.  A lot of newbies took this as gospel and when they tried their beer it was awful.  The result was that people felt that homebrewing wasn't worth the trouble.  It was another step in the right direction increasing the time to condition.  Imagine what Lock, Stock, and Barrel Bourbon Stout would be like after only 3wks?!

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1 hour ago, AnthonyC said:

A lot of newbies took this as gospel and when they tried their beer it was awful.  The result was that people felt that homebrewing wasn't worth the trouble

 

I hear you, but the trouble we run into with "that oughta be in the instructions" is that if we put everything about making beer in the instructions, they would be 200 pages long, while many people already don't read the 6- page foldout. It's kind of a catch-22 and it's a surprisingly difficult balancing act to do the most good for the most new brewers. As @RickBeer mentioned, the newest set of instructions will be clearer. Please keep the feedback coming, we're always looking to improve.

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1 hour ago, AnthonyC said:

I think that Mr. Beer lost a lot of customers b/c they said that the beer would be ready to drink after 3wks conditioning.  Outside of an IPA I have yet to see a beer be at it's optimal flavor after only 3wks of conditioning.  A lot of newbies took this as gospel and when they tried their beer it was awful.  The result was that people felt that homebrewing wasn't worth the trouble.  It was another step in the right direction increasing the time to condition.  Imagine what Lock, Stock, and Barrel Bourbon Stout would be like after only 3wks?!

I don't know, some beers are fine after that time I carbonated  but say make it  4 weeks and lots are drinkable. Not that they do not improve with more time.

I think a worse offender was the short fermentation time and high fermentation temperatures. But as we see, Mr Beer is working on this.

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Nickfixit said:

I think a worse offender was the short fermentation time and high fermentation temperatures. But as we see, Mr Beer is working on this.

 

Yup, that's what we've been telling those who contact us for some time but it is indeed in the new instructions 

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2 hours ago, Newmoon brewer said:

Hmm, guess I actually never heard that when I was on the msg board earlier this year. I knew MB was advertising 2 weeks and you had beer or something but the guru's were saying 3-4 for fermenting and at least 3 for conditioning(carbing) depending on the recipe.

 

Rick my question is, maybe I misunderstood you guys the whole time, but I thought the carbing and conditioning step were both the same step?

It is, that's the 4 weeks

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2 hours ago, Newmoon brewer said:

Hmm, guess I actually never heard that when I was on the msg board earlier this year. I knew MB was advertising 2 weeks and you had beer or something

 Yes, 1 week to ferment and 1 week to carbonate.

 

If everything goes right, with some basic beers you can be essentially done fermenting in 1 week but the yeast has had no time for clean up. Once you then bottle, at 70-75 deg you can also carbonate enough in a week to get a pretty fizzy drink. At that point you have fizz but you have no flavor melding and the hops and other flavors will still be somewhat rough on the edges. But is IS beer. So the claim it not totally false.

 

If what you want is a fizzy alcoholic beery drink in 2 weeks you can get it. Dangers are - if not completely fermented you can get extra carbonation in the bottle - beer bombs, and the flavor palette will likely be rough and some off flavors will not have time to go away.

 

Do not expect commercial quality craft beer in this timeframe - :rolleyes:

 

 

 

  

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I knew that beers would take longer than what was stated by MB but my main question is since in the chart carbing and conditioning are separated time frames, was it just misunderstood by me or can those two steps more or less be considered one time frame for ease of communication? Maybe it's just a play on words but like I said earlier I thought it was always considered the same time frame for both. I knew we couldn't create good beer in two weeks

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In truth, should be fully carbed in 3 weeks but still needs some conditioning time. So 3 weeks in the LBK, 4 weeks in the bottle.(with 4 weeks being the minimum time, 6 weeks will be better). In this hobby/obsession time is your friend, take as much of it as possible.

Edited by Jim Johnson
spelling correction

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15 hours ago, Newmoon brewer said:

Hmm, guess I actually never heard that when I was on the msg board earlier this year. I knew MB was advertising 2 weeks and you had beer or something but the guru's were saying 3-4 for fermenting and at least 3 for conditioning(carbing) depending on the recipe.

 

Rick my question is, maybe I misunderstood you guys the whole time, but I thought the carbing and conditioning step were both the same step?

 

No one ever recommended 4 weeks fermenting (or no one you should listen to).  3-4 was, and is, 3 weeks fermenting, 4 weeks carbing and conditioning.  No beer needs more than 3 weeks fermenting.  2 could be enough, but you need to read FG twice over 48 hours and get identical readings.  And, the yeast can use that extra time to cleanup.

 

I got 18 to 19 days, then cold crash for 3 days.

 

Fermenting ideally is at mid 60s wort temperature, caring and conditioning at 70 or above.

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8 hours ago, Jim Johnson said:

In truth, should be fully carbed in 3 weeks but still needs some conditioning time. So 3 weeks in the LBK, 4 weeks in the bottle.(with 4 weeks being the minimum time, 6 weeks will be better). In this hobby/obsession time is your friend, take as much of it as possible.

 

Time will do you a good benefit of developing nice mellow flavors and getting rid of off tastes.

 

However, time also reduces the freshness of hop taste and aroma and that of some other flavorings. So you will see written that hoppy beers are best drunk young to get the best hop aroma and taste. I have experienced this from what I brewed as I usually sample the beer as soon as it is carbonated, at intervals from sometimes as low as a week to a month or more for first sample. Then I spread out the consumption over months, interspersing a variety of styles in the drinking queue from my pipeline.

The longer you leave the beers, I think the better the rounded flavors and maltiness develops. So you have to try tasting at different points and see at what point the beer suits your taste.

 

For example with one vanilla porter I made the vanilla seemed quite harsh until 4 months had passed when it was much nicer.

 

I think from his comments, Rick Beer favors maltiness, so for him especially, longer maturation times will bring out that characteristic.

 

You will have to experiment, guided by the comments in the forum and find what is your optimum.

 

I will say that I do also enjoy the variation in tastes as my beers mature, so at different times they are like somewhat different brews although just changed over time.

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Part of the beauty of home brewing is that you have control over all those factors mentioned, and are free to experiment and sample at any time during the process. I am now drinking a Winter Dark Ale that managed to hide since last November. It's still pretty darn good! Yes, it has lost some "edge", but not significantly. What is more significant, it has a decent foamy head, very tiny foam bubbles, that are now running down the insides as I finish it off. Great body! This one, as I remember, was straight up - nothing added.

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Hmm, I thought I had this down, but I just read this review on Nilla Porter, and then looked at the instructions, and it says;

 

Ferme­ntation, 3wks

Carbo­nation, 3wks

Bottle Condi­tioning, 2-3 months

Total Brew­ing Time, 4-5 months

So there does seem to be a new process which distinguishes between carbonation and bottle conditioning?

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14 minutes ago, Bhob said:

Hmm, I thought I had this down, but I just read this review on Nilla Porter, and then looked at the instructions, and it says;

 

Ferme­ntation, 3wks

Carbo­nation, 3wks

Bottle Condi­tioning, 2-3 months

Total Brew­ing Time, 4-5 months

So there does seem to be a new process which distinguishes between carbonation and bottle conditioning?

 

So I figure what they mean is that after 3 weeks in the bottle, the yeast has eaten all the sugars it is going to in order to make carbon dioxide for fizziness. In the additional recommended 2-3 months it will not get more fizzy, but the flavors will mellow and meld together for best drinking experience.

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Agree, but does it matter if the bottle conditioning is at room temp or in the fridge? RickBeer has said leave it out of the fridge until you want to drink it, but I had a bottle of Santa Catalina that did improve after a long time in the fridge. (I forgot about it...)

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6 minutes ago, Bhob said:

Agree, but does it matter if the bottle conditioning is at room temp or in the fridge? RickBeer has said leave it out of the fridge until you want to drink it, but I had a bottle of Santa Catalina that did improve after a long time in the fridge. (I forgot about it...)

Yes. The chemical reactions will proceed much faster at 70 than at 35. At 35  they will likely progress some but it takes MUCH longer and not guaranteed all same reactions will take place. For example, yeast will be pretty much sleeping at 35, so it will not take care of other chemicals that might cause a bad taste that it would eat up after it is done with the sugars at 70 deg. - e.g. the cidery stuff.

Yeast is lazy. It eats the easy stuff first.

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On ‎10‎/‎3‎/‎2016 at 10:40 PM, Jim Johnson said:

You're right, also wheats are best young.  as a general rule though it holds up. mine is a true pipeline I manage to drink all of one batch just as the next is ready. Very few of my brews make it to the 5th week.

I mostly do PET bottles and mine is a staggered pipeline. I will try to have 6 different kinds in the fridge at once. Then I have choice of maybe 3 styles depending what I feel like. Being 750 or 1L also I get 2 or more glasses out of each. I may not drink both the same day. That gives another difference in experience, change in carbonation between successive glasses from same bottle.

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On ‎10‎/‎3‎/‎2016 at 10:40 PM, Jim Johnson said:

You're right, also wheats are best young.  as a general rule though it holds up. mine is a true pipeline I manage to drink all of one batch just as the next is ready. Very few of my brews make it to the 5th week.

I tried a "LBK dregs" Wit beer yesterday that was carbonated after a week, but still a shade of khaki from the yeast sludge. (Think tan slacks color)

So I chilled it and tried it. It was amazingly good and I got lots of B12 as well. No stomach upsets either.

Still, that was overdoing the "youngness" factor. I will wait another month before the next one.

 

 

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32 minutes ago, Nickfixit said:

Yes. The chemical reactions will proceed much faster at 70 than at 35. At 35  they will likely progress some but it takes MUCH longer and not guaranteed all same reactions will take place. For example, yeast will be pretty much sleeping at 35, so it will not take care of other chemicals that might cause a bad taste that it would eat up after it is done with the sugars at 70 deg. - e.g. the cidery stuff.

Yeast is lazy. It eats the easy stuff first.

Kinda had a problem with temperature control for my Christmas beer.  I made Caribou Slobber, Brickwarmer Holiday Ale, Spiced Christmas Ale, Smoked Porter, and Smoked Stout all back in late October/early November, and due to the temperature dropping in my "storage room" (about 58-60 degrees now) it has taken MUCH longer than expected to condition.  These are most likely going to end up as 2017 Christmas beer.  The smoked porter (Brewer's Best) will have to be consumed before that b/c they're in PET bottles, and my brews in PET bottles only seem to last about 6-9months before they lose carbonation. 

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5 hours ago, AnthonyC said:

Kinda had a problem with temperature control for my Christmas beer.  I made Caribou Slobber, Brickwarmer Holiday Ale, Spiced Christmas Ale, Smoked Porter, and Smoked Stout all back in late October/early November, and due to the temperature dropping in my "storage room" (about 58-60 degrees now) it has taken MUCH longer than expected to condition.  These are most likely going to end up as 2017 Christmas beer.  The smoked porter (Brewer's Best) will have to be consumed before that b/c they're in PET bottles, and my brews in PET bottles only seem to last about 6-9months before they lose carbonation. 

I have not had problems with PET losing pressure over time, Mine either will pressurize or not. If they don't I change the caps and put another lump more of sugar in.

But I definitely notice the longer time to carbonate as my storage and fermentation is in same room and I try to keep it cooler. Of course if not fermenting I will try to let temp come higher - but that is not often. Still, it does depend on the yeast too.

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