grof5407

Looking for suggestions to modify Czech Pilsner

50 posts in this topic

Thanks for the input, gents. I think I'll do the half and half additions as recommended by @BDawg62. As far as the DME, it's a light Pilsner DME that I want to add just a touch of for some body. I also have some Pilsen malt to do a PM, which will help the body. I like your yeast and fermentation temp recommendation @Nickfixit. I may hold off on the hybrid yeast since I don't have the lager yeast to spare. Yes, I could split the satchet that I have, but it will be awhile until I use the other half and I don't want to store it that long. 

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9 hours ago, Big Sarge said:

The GBCP is next up in the brewing hopper and I am looking to add some light Pilsen DME, as well as Saaz and Hallertau Mittlefreu hops. Question for the group: what hop schedule would you use for 0.5 oz of the aforementioned hops? I'm only looking for aroma and look to do a 5 or 10 of one and dry hop the other. 

Either way, I don't think I can go wrong!

 

I am actually going to be experimenting with drastically increasing the aroma of the hops for an upcoming brew -

 

My plan is (using Mr Beer .5 ounces, 1 pack Centennial 1 pack Cascade at each boil time)

1 at 20 minute boil

1 at 5

1 at flameout

1 dry hop at 2 weeks.

 

I am curious about the Saaz and Hallertau combo.....hmmmmm - is it better to separate them out (do one at 5, one at dry, etc.) or is it better to combo them up each time like I am doing......

 

I am not you and not experienced at this at ALL......but if I were in the same situation I would

1. Hallertau at 5

2. Saaz at dry hop.

 

I really like the smell of Saaz and fill it would bring a bit of lightness to the woodsy/earthiness of the Hallertau.

 

 

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9 hours ago, MrWhy said:

 

I am actually going to be experimenting with drastically increasing the aroma of the hops for an upcoming brew -

 

My plan is (using Mr Beer .5 ounces, 1 pack Centennial 1 pack Cascade at each boil time)

1 at 20 minute boil

1 at 5

1 at flameout

1 dry hop at 2 weeks.

 

I am curious about the Saaz and Hallertau combo.....hmmmmm - is it better to separate them out (do one at 5, one at dry, etc.) or is it better to combo them up each time like I am doing......

 

I am not you and not experienced at this at ALL......but if I were in the same situation I would

1. Hallertau at 5

2. Saaz at dry hop.

 

I really like the smell of Saaz and fill it would bring a bit of lightness to the woodsy/earthiness of the Hallertau.

 

 

I'm still pretty torn, as this was the original plan. There are obviously great pairings of hops for aroma, as evidenced by some pretty complex IPA aromas. The Hallertau and Saaz are different enough, but will also pair well. The problem is, in which combination. I haven't compared 5-minute boils to dry hopping, although I'm guessing there's a subtle difference. Do I want one to stand out more than the other? If so, which one? I think they'd be pretty good in combination both at 5 minutes and dry hopped. 

My original recipe included the Saaz hops alone for the Pilsner, which was easier. I picked up the mittlefreu at a not-so-L-HBS and used a half ounce in the Helles Bock, so I still have the other half to use up. 

I appreciate all of the feedback and will likely keep juggling it until I actually brew it. I'm still open to other's experiences. 

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I'm no expert on which hops to add when.   However, it is widely preached that you need to learn what something does before you start monkeying with it.  That's why we say over and over to people to make the refill as intended, then add LME, then add LME and hops, then do recipes, then do steeping recipes.  

 

Example:

 

You add a new muffler, new plugs, and new tires to your car.  It seems to drive a lot better.  Why?  You have no idea, because you don't know what change made it better.  

 

Brewing beer is no different.  What does Saaz do for aroma?  What does Hallertau do for aroma?  If you don't have a clue, then don't combine them.  

 

A few years back I brewed my one and only lager, an Oktoberfest.  I made the exact same recipe, for 5 gallons.  Except that I split it into 2.5 gallons at the boil.  I did 1/2 oz of Northern Brewer, 1/4 of Hersbrucker, and another 1/4 of Hersbrucker in one, and in the other I did 1/2 oz of Tettang, 1/4 of Saaz and 1/4 of Saaz.  What did I learn?  Well, besides that I don't like a beer with a lot of Munich malt, I learned that the "stronger hops" one - Northern / Hersbrucker / Hersbrucker I disliked as compared to the milder hops (Tettang / Saaz / Saaz), but I didn't learn - do I like lagers vs. ales?  I didn't learn - which hops made the difference?  What I should have done was brew the exact same recipe, in one use lager yeast and the other use ale yeast, and compare them.  Then, make the one I liked better with Northern  and Hersbrucker vs. Northern and Saaz.  Then, maybe make it with Northern and Hersbrucker vs. Tettang and Hersbrucker.

 

I would advise changing ONE element each time.  I would make it with ONE of the hops, then next time (or at the same time) make it with the other hops.  Taste each. Then, pour 1/2 of one into 1/2 of the other and taste that.

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2 hours ago, RickBeer said:

I'm no expert on which hops to add when.   However, it is widely preached that you need to learn what something does before you start monkeying with it.  That's why we say over and over to people to make the refill as intended, then add LME, then add LME and hops, then do recipes, then do steeping recipes.  

 

Example:

 

You add a new muffler, new plugs, and new tires to your car.  It seems to drive a lot better.  Why?  You have no idea, because you don't know what change made it better.  

 

Brewing beer is no different.  What does Saaz do for aroma?  What does Hallertau do for aroma?  If you don't have a clue, then don't combine them.  

 

A few years back I brewed my one and only lager, an Oktoberfest.  I made the exact same recipe, for 5 gallons.  Except that I split it into 2.5 gallons at the boil.  I did 1/2 oz of Northern Brewer, 1/4 of Hersbrucker, and another 1/4 of Hersbrucker in one, and in the other I did 1/2 oz of Tettang, 1/4 of Saaz and 1/4 of Saaz.  What did I learn?  Well, besides that I don't like a beer with a lot of Munich malt, I learned that the "stronger hops" one - Northern / Hersbrucker / Hersbrucker I disliked as compared to the milder hops (Tettang / Saaz / Saaz), but I didn't learn - do I like lagers vs. ales?  I didn't learn - which hops made the difference?  What I should have done was brew the exact same recipe, in one use lager yeast and the other use ale yeast, and compare them.  Then, make the one I liked better with Northern  and Hersbrucker vs. Northern and Saaz.  Then, maybe make it with Northern and Hersbrucker vs. Tettang and Hersbrucker.

 

I would advise changing ONE element each time.  I would make it with ONE of the hops, then next time (or at the same time) make it with the other hops.  Taste each. Then, pour 1/2 of one into 1/2 of the other and taste that.

 

This is why when we get our first annual Mr Beer Community Brewers Thing organized, you are going to be our keynote speaker.

 

And I'm not joking!

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I agree with you 100% @RickBeer. I am an advocate for starting with the basics and building upon them. In this case, I don't feel like I'm going too far off of the beaten path I've stayed on. I've had the Czech Pilsner straight up and with LME. While we know that Mr. Beer keeps their proprietary ingredients a secret (particularly the hops in the HME), it's no secret that the Pilsner uses the Saaz hops. In this case I'm merely adding the Hallertau Mittlefreu. The steeping grains are in line with the base malt and merely being leveraged to reduce the extract twang, something I find more prominent in the lighter colored beers. 

I've done the due diligence in researching the hops and I'm confident in the pairing. I feel that the recipe I've outlined stands in the threshold between a good beer and a great beer. If I swing and miss, I'll still have a good beer. I'll reserve the individual hop explorations for non-HME batches, so as to have a clean background to isolate them against. 

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2 hours ago, Big Sarge said:

I agree with you 100% @RickBeer. I am an advocate for starting with the basics and building upon them. In this case, I don't feel like I'm going too far off of the beaten path I've stayed on. I've had the Czech Pilsner straight up and with LME. While we know that Mr. Beer keeps their proprietary ingredients a secret (particularly the hops in the HME), it's no secret that the Pilsner uses the Saaz hops. In this case I'm merely adding the Hallertau Mittlefreu. The steeping grains are in line with the base malt and merely being leveraged to reduce the extract twang, something I find more prominent in the lighter colored beers. 

I've done the due diligence in researching the hops and I'm confident in the pairing. I feel that the recipe I've outlined stands in the threshold between a good beer and a great beer. If I swing and miss, I'll still have a good beer. I'll reserve the individual hop explorations for non-HME batches, so as to have a clean background to isolate them against. 

 

Big Sarge,

 

You have been here for nearly 2 years, you don't need to explain your actions to anybody.

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20 minutes ago, Hoag's Brew said:

Can I add two booster pouches to the Czech Pilsner? 

 

you sure can....but if you don't maintain proper temps and condition long enough you could end up with a cidery tasting beer...booster is basically sugar and adding to much can make for a cidery beer...I'm sure someone else can explain it better..

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35 minutes ago, Hoag's Brew said:

Can I add two booster pouches to the Czech Pilsner? 

 

I'd advise against it; add one at the most. It'll boost the ABV but take away from the body of the beer.

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On ‎3‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 6:48 PM, grof5407 said:

Hey all,

I'm new and I wanted to make a czech pilsner, but wanted to tweak the flavor a bit. Not sure how to do this or what flavor profile would taste good. Any suggestions and tips for doing this? Thanks In Advance.

 

saaz hops and a smooth LME works really nice

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as usual good advice rick. if I had the money and time I would do tons of SMASH brews just to play with flavors and hop additions.  you can build a huge knowledge base that way on seeing what you like and don't.   also doing steeps of grain to sip and see how they taste...anyway.

 

I just brewed a variant of my chipotle porter and didn't want to spend more money on hops.. used what I had kicking around. it could end up being weird as I used sorachi in it.  not sure how lime and dill will play off the smoke and pepper.  also added cold roasted espresso this time.  weird or not i'll still enjoy it.

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I have only used the standard and deluxe recipies from Mr. Beer, but I don't recall seeing directions that say to boil the ingredients together. I've only boiled water (and sometimes a booster), and then removed from the heat and stirred in the LME / DHE packets. 

 

Should I be boiling the ingredients longer together before I take them off the heat? 

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18 minutes ago, Hoag's Brew said:

I have only used the standard and deluxe recipies from Mr. Beer, but I don't recall seeing directions that say to boil the ingredients together. I've only boiled water (and sometimes a booster), and then removed from the heat and stirred in the LME / DHE packets. 

 

Should I be boiling the ingredients longer together before I take them off the heat? 

 

In the cases where you would need to, the instructions should say so.  This would occur when you're doing a hop boil.  If it's a partial mash recipe, you'd steep your grains, rinse them, bring the wort to a boil, and add the hops for the time indicated.  If it's not partial mash, then usually you bring the water to a boil, add an LME softpack (or DME), then add the hops for the time indicated.  Someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but the reason this is done is that the hops need something to "grab onto" in the water during the boil in order to add aroma/flavor/bitterness, and the malt in the wort is what they grab on to.

As far as I know, the HME (the extract in the can) should never be boiled.

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9 hours ago, Shrike said:

 

In the cases where you would need to, the instructions should say so.  This would occur when you're doing a hop boil.  If it's a partial mash recipe, you'd steep your grains, rinse them, bring the wort to a boil, and add the hops for the time indicated.  If it's not partial mash, then usually you bring the water to a boil, add an LME softpack (or DME), then add the hops for the time indicated.  Someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but the reason this is done is that the hops need something to "grab onto" in the water during the boil in order to add aroma/flavor/bitterness, and the malt in the wort is what they grab on to.

As far as I know, the HME (the extract in the can) should never be boiled.

 

Exactly right @Shrike

 

If you are planning to use hops a bit beyond the aroma flavor, then they need to be boiled for time. But you can't really just boil them in water. So you use LMEs/DMEs. (I actually do not know if you could use the partial mash "wort" or not. Someone will have to jump in.) You put in your water, your LME/DME, bring to boil, then do your hop additions for the times selected.

 

You do not want to boil the HMEs at all because they are already hopped....(hence the H. Hopped Malt extract.)

 

Based on some things I have read here, I have begun exploring not even putting the HME into "just" boiled water but am letting the temp drop a bit more.

 

 

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4 hours ago, MrWhy said:

@Big Sarge

 

Did you figure out what you were going to do regarding the hop boil for this one?????

I'm still torn...

I'm leaning towards doing both at 5 and dry hopping both. If not, I'll do the Saaz at 5 and dry hop the Hallertau, to see if that isolates the flavors any. 

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4 hours ago, Big Sarge said:

I'm still torn...

I'm leaning towards doing both at 5 and dry hopping both. If not, I'll do the Saaz at 5 and dry hop the Hallertau, to see if that isolates the flavors any. 

 

Moot point - but this is where it would be nice to have two concurrent batches so you could do a test.

 

My suspicion is, that since we are talking aroma, with conditioning times it is all going to blend in together regardless, especially using the same amount of each.

 

I haven't really explored dry hopping yet, but am going to with my next brew.

 

What week do you dry hop?

 

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46 minutes ago, MrWhy said:

 

Moot point - but this is where it would be nice to have two concurrent batches so you could do a test.

 

My suspicion is, that since we are talking aroma, with conditioning times it is all going to blend in together regardless, especially using the same amount of each.

 

I haven't really explored dry hopping yet, but am going to with my next brew.

 

What week do you dry hop?

 

Generally i dry hop 5-7 days before bottling..... this includes cold crashing

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On ‎3‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 5:15 PM, Shrike said:

 

In the cases where you would need to, the instructions should say so.  This would occur when you're doing a hop boil.  If it's a partial mash recipe, you'd steep your grains, rinse them, bring the wort to a boil, and add the hops for the time indicated.  If it's not partial mash, then usually you bring the water to a boil, add an LME softpack (or DME), then add the hops for the time indicated.  Someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but the reason this is done is that the hops need something to "grab onto" in the water during the boil in order to add aroma/flavor/bitterness, and the malt in the wort is what they grab on to.

As far as I know, the HME (the extract in the can) should never be boiled.

There are other ways to do the hops too, you just get may be a different result and different proportions of the hop flavors out of them.

I think the boiling with the malt applies more to the bitterness and maybe flavor than the aroma. The small amounts of time we boil with Mr. Beer recipes usually won't add much bitterness.  (Yes I have seen the boil time chart  :-))

So I have done some (when they called for it) with a lot of boiling, like one IPA that called for multiple additions of hops and that was on top of malt extract.

Otherwise, I just do boil for up to 15 min, or I have done a 30 min steep  in boiling water poured over them then the liquor added in  (a Cooper's Aussie recipe), or add at flameout through fermentation, or add after main fermentation is done (dry hop).

The later you add, the "fresher" the hop aroma and taste is, but you have to relatively put more hops in to get it as they are not in the wort as long.

If you add a bit at a time over time, you get more complex taste result, but I don't generally bother. The results are good enough without - and if you use hop bags it gets to be a pain. 

This was a real fruity one e.g. but it is a bit more complicated.

Fruity Wheat 2
HME Bav Weissbier
Extra Malt - 8 oz Wheat DME

Mix up 0.5 oz Galaxy Hop/0.5 oz Nelson Sauvin Hop pellets. )
Steep 4 oz Instant Oats + 4 oz Flaked wheat + 4 oz 2 row in a bag in enough water to cover for 30 min at approx. 150 deg  & keep moving it so it doesn't glue up & drain  (don't boil - it will get too gluey - even solid)
boil 5g (1 tbsp) Coriander, 1 orange zest boil with 1/2 hop mixture in a bag in the steeping liquor made up to 4-6 cups total  with hot water for 5 min.
add the other 1/2 of the hop mixture at flameout in a bag

 

 

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