MiniYoda

The not-so-famous CAL experiment

67 posts in this topic

Okay, Mr. Why asked, and while I wasn't going to post until tomorrow, I guess the earlier I do it, the more advise I'll get from you folks.

 

My experiment is to brew 4 LBK's of CAL.  Each will get a different LME (golden, pale, smooth and robust).  I will add a booster to each, but I won't add anything else that would affect the taste (no additional grains or hops).  The primary difference will be the LME used.  I say "primary" because there are things that I can't control that might affect the experiment.  Three of the CAL cans have a best-by date of August 5, 2016, while one is August 4 2017.  Thus, while the CAL itself should be identical, three are a year older than the fourth.  Also, the LME's aren't the same expire date, but the oldest has a best-by date of August 2017, and they are all very close to the same date..

 

A true experiment should have all four HME's and all four LME's of the same born-on date.  I don't think this is going to be a huge issue, but I'm open to suggestions as to using one LME on the newer HME can to try to "even" things out.  Each batch will ferment with Safeale 05, all four packs have the same best-by date.  I chose this instead of the regular pack of yeast because of the addition of the booster.

 

As of right now, the plans is to start two LBK's Saturday, and the other two next Saturday (I only have two available now, but will have two more freed up next weekend).  Ferment standard 3 weeks, carb with the same box of Domino sugar cubes for all four batches, and carb/condition for at least 5 weeks (at least two months total time).  Each will get a gold bottle cap with JUST the initial of the LME used.  Once ready, and once my friend's pool is ready, I will take several of each to a pool party.  I will let my friend, his wife, his daughter (she's 16, but he lets her sample beer, and it's not up to me), and any friends/family they have sample them.  I will have them write notes as to what they think of the taste of each beer, knowing only the letter on the cap.  I will report back on what they think is the best/worst, and what they think each tasted like compared to commercial brews.

 

My current thinking:

 

- As I said before, should I use a particular LME on the younger can of HME, or should the "best by" date not be a huge issue at this point

- Should I wait a week, and brew all four at the same time?  If I do, I will get a better balance of fermenting temperatures, and not a cases where two fermented/condition a week ahead of time, and thus not having a near-exact ferment/condition air temp as the other.  No, I can't put them in the fridge and use the temp control gadget, as it is being used on the freezer to condition a lager.

- I won't tell the people drinking the beer what the letter means.  I'll just tell them it's a code used by the brewery.  They also shouldn't tell each other what they think, but just write down notes, and once each of the four are sampled, I'll consider telling them that G is "golden", R is "robust", etc.  This should help not bias the decision.

 

I'm opening the table to thoughts.

MrWhy, Bonsai & Brew, Shrike and 1 other like this

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Oh, and by the way.  I did consider mixing all four cans of CAL, so that they will all be "equal" in date, but thought that:

 

1) this wouldn't really be necessary,

2) it might introduce unwanted material, having the HME exposed to the air for an extra amount of time, and

3) the challenge to make sure each keg got as close to the same amount of HME as possible.

 

And yes, each batch will get a freshly dishwasher-washed set of tools, and fresh sanitizer, so each batch will be as close to the others as possible

 

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This is going to be an interesting experiment and I am excitedly awaiting results!!!

 

1. I am assuming each LMe will affect color. But will it be significantly noticeable?  Guessing the extremes....pale and robust, yes. But smooth and robust? Looking forward to finding out!

2. Will the taste between them be noticeable? Will color affect taste? If the color is perceptively different, I would love if you can control for that and for taste.

--

 

Great experiment!!!!! Looking forward to whatever you discover!

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No doubt that taste will be different between the four (hence the name of each LME).  I doubt I will notice it much as I don't have a strong sense of taste.  This is why I'm depending on others, and if I might be sexist, the women (they seem to have a stronger sense of taste).  Not sure if color will affect taste,  but it color is a concern, I can get Solo cups to make the color less noticeable.

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1)  Using S-05 because you are adding Booster implies you think the Mr. Beer yeast cannot handle 5.1%.  That is not correct.  S-05 is a different yeast, but in this case I would say you are wasting money.

 

2) You are allowing a 16 year old to drink your beer.  You, not your friend, are responsible for that legally.  If he buys her beer, that is his responsibility.   If he serves her your beer with your knowledge, that is your responsibility.   Stop this nonsense and say no.

 

3) You will notice little difference, if any across all 4.  8.8 ounces added to a 1.86 pound can plus Booster will be very diluted.

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1.  I have the extra S-05, so it's not money wasted so much as money already spent.  Might as well use it.

2.  I'm not the one letting her drink. Her parents are.  I've not seen her drink, but I was told that she did *sample* my beers previously.  Based on how it was described, she sampled, not drank, so it sounded like a minimal amount just for the taste.  In my presence, I would request that my friend give her at most one sip, but as she isn't my child, it is his house, and he is giving it to his own 16 year old, it's not my responsibility.  I can only say "not more than a sip".

3.  I figured I will notice little difference, but again, I have a very weak sense of taste.  It's mostly just to see if anyone can taste the difference, and to enjoy a few home brews by the pool.

 

On to color, I have heard that HME can turn darker as it gets older, but I don't know to what degree.  Also, I'm sure the LMEs vary in color too.  If I wanted to try to balance things out, I would use the darkest colored LME on the youngest HME, and the rest on the older.  But still, I don't think color is going to be a factor in this taste test (but......I could be wrong).

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1) $4 per pack is spent regardless.

 

2) It is your beer, that you know he is giving her.  And possibly in your presence.  Therefore, you have responsibility, as does he, legally.   You should state to him that he should not give her your beer.  If he does it in your presence, you are on the hook.  Period.  How to prevent it?  Simply don't give him your beer.  See below.  Claim whatever you want, but what if she tells a friend about it, maybe on social media?  And they tell their parents, who then tell authorities.  MiniYoda is on the hook.  Boom.

 

Kicker is that in some states,  the parents CAN give her beer, but you cannot.  And, in some states, it is illegal to transport your beer to their house...

 

And if she then drove somewhere, she can not have a drop of alcohol in her, legally.  Fender bender happens, police come, boom again.  MiniYoda in stripes.  And if someone sues for injuries, there goes your house...

 

Contributing To The Delinquency Of A Minor

 

Adults who persuade or help minors commit acts of juvenile delinquency may be charged with the crime of contributing to the delinquency of a minor (or "CDM"). A minor is anyone under the age of majority, 18 in most states. Since possession of alcohol is an act of juvenile delinquency, for example, providing alcohol to minors would be an act of CDM in most cases. Colorado was the first to establish the crime in 1903 and all states now have such laws, even though most have carved out some exceptions.

An act of juvenile delinquency is basically a crime committed by a minor and handled outside of the criminal justice system. Definitions of delinquency and laws affecting juveniles may vary from state to state (see Juvenile Justice for more information).

This article focuses on the crime of contributing to the delinquency of a minor, particularly the common act of providing alcohol to minors. For more information, see Underage DUI: Zero Tolerance Laws; MIP: A Minor in Possession; Social Host Liability; and additional articles in FindLaw’s Alcohol Crimes section.

CDM: Elements of the Crime

Every state makes it a crime for adults to aid a minor's act of delinquency. They differ but are generally similar in scope. For instance, most states will charge you with a misdemeanor if you offer to buy a case of beer for a teen or host a keg party attended by your teenage son and his friends. Some states, however, treat the crime as a felony in certain instances.

The elements of CDM generally include:

  • An adult (or another minor, in some states) committed an act or failed to perform a duty (sometimes regardless of intent).
  • This act or omission caused (or has the tendency to cause) a minor to become or remain:
    1. A dependent of the juvenile court; or
    2. A delinquent; or
    3. A habitual truant

Most laws use language such as “tending to cause delinquency.” This means the minor does not actually have to commit an act of delinquency for the adult to be charged for the crime. For example, your 14-year-old neighbor does not have to actually possess the case of beer you bought for him in order for you to be charged for CDM.

CDM Laws Vary by State

Some laws specifically state that only “parents, legal guardians, and others who have care of custody of a child” may be charged with CDM. But these jurisdictions also usually prosecute others, such coworkers or strangers, for contributing to the delinquency of a minor. Additionally, the term “contributing” is very broadly defined by most statutes, leaving it open to interpretation by a jury or judge.

Different jurisdictions disagree over whether the behavior must actually lead to an act of delinquency (referred to in the “elements” section, above) and whether mens rea (a “guilty mind”) is required for a guilty verdict. Some states only require the intent to commit the act in question, regardless of whether the defendant knew the minor’s actual age. But others allow an affirmative defense based on lack of mens rea, such as being unaware of the minor’s age and thus not intending to commit the crime.

Examples of state CDM laws:

  • California (Cal. Pen. Code § 272): Includes acts that “tend to” cause delinquency; charged as a misdemeanor, punishable by a maximum fine of $2,500 and up to one year in jail.
  • Florida (Florida Statute 827.04): Charged as a first-degree misdemeanor, punishable by a $1,000 fine and up to one year in jail; statute explicitly states that it is not necessary for the child to have actually committed an act of delinquency to be charged with CDM.
  • Ohio (Ohio Revised Code 2919.24): Law uses the phrase “unruly child” in reference to a juvenile delinquent. Statute explicitly states that each day of violation is prosecuted as a separate offense.

CDM vs. Providing Alcohol to Someone Underage

While those caught providing alcohol to a minor may be charged with contributing to the delinquency of a minor, they also may face a separate charge for providing alcohol to someone under the age of 21 (also referred to as a “minor,” but in the context of alcohol possession). It depends on the state and the case, but prosecutors often persuade the defendant to plead guilty to the lesser charge in exchange for dropping the more severe one. Still, prosecutors may be free to proceed with both charges.

Contributing to the Delinquency of a Minor: Exceptions

It is not always a crime to provide a minor with alcohol in at least 40 states. But these exceptions are narrowly defined. The following exceptions to the minimum legal drinking age may be valid defenses to CDM charges:

  • Private premises with parental consent: For example, serving your teenage child a glass of wine at dinner (29 states, including New York and Texas).
  • Private premises without parental consent: For example, a minor helping herself to a can of beer while home alone (six states, including Louisiana and New Jersey).
  • Religious reasons: The most common example is drinking a sip of wine at church for ceremonial purposes (25 states, including Colorado and Illinois).
  • Medical purposes: Tinctures and some other medications may contain alcohol (16 states, including Arizona and Washington).
  • Government-related work: This may include participation in government research or working undercover (four states, including Michigan and Oregon).
  • Educational Purposes: For example, adding wine to a sauce while attending culinary school (seven states, including North Carolina and Vermont).
  • Premises selling alcohol, with parental approval: For example, a teenager has a drink with her parents at a restaurant (11 states, including Massachusetts and Nevada).

 

 

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I'm not going to get into an argument here about parents serving to their minor child.  That's not the point of the thread.  If you really want, I can do the research online to see to what degree it is allowed in my state.  The *impression* I got from my friend is that there was only a small taste sample of my beers given to her, and it wasn't in my presence.  The one time I went to his house and he drank one of my beers, he offered to have her tasted it and she declined it.  So, as of today, the only time she has sampled my beers was *not* in my presence.  If he does it and I'm there, I'll tell him I don't approve.  I think my friend is mature enough and intelligent enough to not let his daughter drink beyond a sip, and the impression I get about her is that she has no desire to drink.  Again, it's not my business, and this isn't the point of the thread.

 

The one question I do have which I hope you wouldn't mind answering concerns how to do this experiment.  Should I brew all four batches on the same day, or would it matter if I did two this weekend and the other two next weekend.

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Your whole process is done to the extreme, as I'm sure you know.  The answer is that it won't matter at all.  If you are concerned about the scientific value of your experiment, simply refrigerate bottles at the same point in their conditioning, but it's CAL so it won't be a lot different.

 

Again, the issue is not your friend serving his daughter beer, it's him serving him beer that you made.

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Ok, here is my $0.02 worth.

 

The added LME will in fact effect the color and flavor of the beer.  Cal is a light beer similar in color to a Bud Light. 

 

1.  When you add a Pale LME you will see little to no change in this color.  The flavor should have a more malty backbone.

2.  When you add a Smooth LME you will see a beer that is more of an amber color.  Again the flavor will be more malty.

3.  When you add a Robust LME you will see a beer that is more brown in color.  This beer should have a slight roasted flavor.

 

I would brew them all at the same time.  The HME's with the earlier date should be the ones that you add LME.  And then brew the newer HME as is.

 

Your decision on yeast, it is your experiment.  Safale US-05 is a very neutral yeast and if the temperature is kept fairly low (64) you will not get any flavor from it.

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Thanks for the info, @BDawg62.  One thing.  I'm adding an LME to each of the four CALs.  You forgot to mention Golden.  I could brew a fifth one without any LME. 

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24 minutes ago, MiniYoda said:

Thanks for the info, @BDawg62.  One thing.  I'm adding an LME to each of the four CALs.  You forgot to mention Golden.  I could brew a fifth one without any LME. 

I didn't realize you were going to do golden.  That is a wheat LME that won't add much to the Cal except to make the beer cloudy, maybe a little bit of mouthfeel.

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4 hours ago, RickBeer said:

Using S-05 because you are adding Booster implies you think the Mr. Beer yeast cannot handle 5.1%.

What can the Mr. Beer yeast handle? I was going to make Surly Dog IPA which is 8.8% according to the recipe. I was thinking of using one or two packs of Mr. Beer yest instead of purchasing the US 05. Any thoughts? This might be a question for someone at Mr. Beer. Thanks in advance for your reply.

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It's more like 7.4% (3.1 x 2 plus 1.2 for the honey).

 

The S-05 is more for the yeast quality (clean fermenting), and likely for the attenuation as this is going to be a dry brew due to the honey.  

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Okay, so I have one vote for brew them all at the same time, and one for "it won't matter".  I'm still open to suggestions.  Voting will end Saturday morning, as that would be when I start brewing the first two if I do two this weekend and two next.

 

 

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If you have the space to ferment 4 (or 5 if you do the CAL plain) LBKs at once and since you will have all the brewing stuff out.... I say make a day of it and do em all at once. If space is gonna be an issue then split it.

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1 hour ago, MiniYoda said:

Okay, so I have one vote for brew them all at the same time, and one for "it won't matter".  I'm still open to suggestions.

 

 

As you've said, it can't be a perfect scientific experiment with three HMEs having best-by dates significantly different from the other. But I think I'd start them all the same day.

 

I suspect varying fermentation temps (that might come with a week's separation) would have more impact on the final product than the best-by dates. So it seems closer to science to control what you can, and that would be fermentation conditions.

 

BTW, I think using the Safale 05 makes sense if you already have them. Again, it's closer to science than four yeast packets of varying ages, one of them kind of old.

 

Jim

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2 hours ago, hotrod3539 said:

If you have the space to ferment 4 (or 5 if you do the CAL plain) LBKs at once and since you will have all the brewing stuff out.... I say make a day of it and do em all at once. If space is gonna be an issue then split it.

 

Space for four LBK's in tote tubs is not a problem.  It's pretty much how my kitchen floor looks right now.

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As with any real scientific experiment. The more variables you can eliminate, the more equal and trustworthy your results will be. So... I would recommend you start them all at once, and bottle them all at once. Time and temperature are variables that you can eliminate.

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Based on the suggestions, I am going to wait a weekend, and brew all four test CALs next weekend. 

 

With respect to @RickBeer , I do agree with you.  This is one CAL with one LME each.  Given enough conditioning time, two of the kegs being ahead of the other two in fermenting and conditioning shouldn't matter.  Multiple weeks between batches, possibly, since there could be major variations in temperature, etc.  But the HME/LME product itself probably won't vary much unless it is very past "best by" date.  So, unless there is reason to not do so, I will brew all four at the same time next weekend.  And again @RickBeer, I respect and honor your opinions and value your input on this experiment.

 

Next, it will be four LBKs, not five.  I thougth about doing a "control", brewing a CAL without an LME.  I ruled that out.  It's not because of any problems making 5 LBK's in one day.  The reason for this Looney science experiment is to see what are the taste differences between the four LMEs.  My friends sampling these beers won't know much about Mr. Beer products. They will just know that the beers are very similar with a slight variation.  I mostly want to know more about this variation and the taste caused by the LME and how they compare to commercial beers they have had in the past.  Not how it compares with a "control".  Also, to get the "control" to the same level of ABV, I'd have to add more neutral fermenting sugar.  Not a problem, but I personally don't consider an HME and two boosters to be equal to an HME/LME/booster.  Just me.

 

Given an extra week gives me a bit more of a chance to plan and prepare.  First question is, will the S-05 be overkill, and affect attenuation.  All four LBKs will...one way or another...get the yeast of the same born-on date.  I did some research today on attenuation, and am slightly wondering if S-05 might be overkill, and cause a taste issue.  Yes, all kegs get the same yeast, but I also have to understand that the tasters will be drinking the beer.  Would S-05 be overkill for the one HME/LME/booster, or should I stick with one pack of regular Mr. Beer's yeast.  If I drop the S-05, I need to decide by Tuesday morning so that I can place an order for four packs of regular yeast....confident that they will have the same "born on" date.  Don't worry about shipping costs or Yoda is wasting money.  I can always order most stuff to justify ordering four packs of basic yeast.  I just want to have a good taste test of the LMEs.  Again, just me.

 

Yoder.

 

 

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Wow, i cant believe i most this whole thread. 

 

To the best of my knowledge:

05 is not necessarily overkill. It is possible to get off flavors by over pitching and under pitching , however, i trust fermentis yeast more than i trust coopers. Sorry. I stopped using the MRB yeast early in my brewing. Any LHBS should have coopers yeast if you go that route, youll save on shipping that way. Or just use 2 packets for 4 lbks. 1/2 in each. 

 

I would also like to say that this is your experiment, your money, your decisions. You do whatever the hell you want to do

 

that being said... CAL does kinda suck without major upgrades. Just read the description or each LME and youll know what each batch will taste like. I think in the end youll have 8 gallons of mediocre beer. 

 

Anyway. Ive done tons of experiments. Some made sense, some not so much. I was curious, so i brewed it. Screw you if you dont like it. Someone on this forum once said "if you dont brew it, who will" and ive taken that to heart. There might be 100s of us on this forum who benefit from this experiment when you report back. Or maybe just you. Either way, what you brew is up to you my friend 

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21 minutes ago, Creeps McLane said:

Wow, i cant believe i most this whole thread. 

 

To the best of my knowledge:

05 is not necessarily overkill. It is possible to get off flavors by over pitching and under pitching , however, i trust fermentis yeast more than i trust coopers. Sorry. I stopped using the MRB yeast early in my brewing. Any LHBS should have coopers yeast if you go that route, youll save on shipping that way. Or just use 2 packets for 4 lbks. 1/2 in each. 

 

I would also like to say that this is your experiment, your money, your decisions. You do whatever the hell you want to do

 

that being said... CAL does kinda suck without major upgrades. Just read the description or each LME and youll know what each batch will taste like. I think in the end youll have 8 gallons of mediocre beer. 

 

Anyway. Ive done tons of experiments. Some made sense, some not so much. I was curious, so i brewed it. Screw you if you dont like it. Someone on this forum once said "if you dont brew it, who will" and ive taken that to heart. There might be 100s of us on this forum who benefit from this experiment when you report back. Or maybe just you. Either way, what you brew is up to you my friend 

 

Thanks, @Creeps McLane.  I appreciate your input.  Yes, CAL does suck without an upgrade.  But, what would it, plus an upgrade, taste like?.  Not a great beer, but perhaps a good beer with.........?  That's my thesis to go from Freshman to Sophomore (in other words, I'm still in my first year of brewing).  For the record I did read on what Mr. Beer's team said about the LME's.  And I trust what they say.  But, I feel that in order to advance to the next level of brewing, I need to study, learn and research.  To me, this experiment is "research". 

 

You said you have done "tons of experiments".  I have only done a hundred pounds or two.  And for the record I am right now drinking a failed experiment.  This adventure is another experiment for me, and I thought I would share it with my friends here.

 

8 gallons of mediocre beer....yep.  no doubt.  Waste of time and product, probably.  Something for my friends to drink by the pool, okay.  A means to get rid of some product......well, why should it sit on the shelf.  I won't be brewing anymore during the summer anyways, so might as well use it. 

 

My first ever beer that I brewed back in September of last year tasted like sour green apple.  A beer that I brewed back in January, per my friend Lee, was "phenomenal" (Mr. Beer's Belgian Blanc).  Some of my beers that will be ready in May are probably rather good.  I'm learning by reading and doing.  This is an experiment on "doing".  If I'm annoying anyone with my posts........sorry.....please ignore them.  These are the rants of an old geezer.  Unless the folks ta Mr. Beer object, I will still post my studies online.

 

 

 

 

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I don't think anyone's getting annoyed by these posts.  And if they are they need to call the police so they can arrest the guy that's forcing them at gunpoint to read them. :)  I for one look forward to reading the results.  If they're bad, I'll have learned something.  If they're good, I'll have learned something.

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11 hours ago, MiniYoda said:

... Would S-05 be overkill for the one HME/LME/booster, or should I stick with one pack of regular Mr. Beer's yeast.

 

Yoder.

The recipe I just brewed, 1776 Ale, had an OG of 1.042 and an anticipated ABV of 4.2, and Mr. Beer recommended Safale US-05 on that one. It seems to me that your CAL plus LME would have similar numbers, so the 05 would not be overkill. Plus you have it on hand, might as well use it unless there's a reason not to.

 

One other thought: If you agree with Creeps that you're likely to end up with a truckload of mediocre beer, why not throw a packet of Cascades into each brew. Might bring it up a notch above mediocre.

 

Jim

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Thanks, jasbo.  I'm not worried about mediocre beer.  I'm more interested in the flavor of the LMEs and how they compare to each other.  I have some very good beers conditioning right now that will be ready in time for pool season.  And after one or two very good Mr. Beer's beer on a warm day by the pool, a few mediocre beers won't matter anyways.  Rather, they might be refreshing,

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