MiniYoda

recipe for Helles

71 posts in this topic

24 minutes ago, MrWhy said:

 

As I research these things, this is what I am finding as well. The bigger european brewers (german, belgian, etc.).....it is all very simple ingredients, grain bills, etc. But the technical expertise is through the roof. 100s of years of refinement to produce a beer that has a very specific and distinct taste.

 

In regards to the ingredients, once you produce on a large scale (and these german and belgian brewers are NOT small craft breweries) then standardization of ingredients becomes a cost issue. You just cannot afford to do weird things. If I want to try something and it adds 5 dollars to a batch, well there you go. But if I am brewing a batch 100 times bigger it adds 500 dollars. and that cuts into my profits (if I were selling.)

 

Here on my side of the country, the brewers I get the chance to talk to tend to rave about Sierra Nevada. They hold them in the highest regard for technical expertise.

 

I've never made it up there to their brewery or tap room, but it is on the list.

 

And with that, you've earned your BrewMaster badge!  Nice work, @MrWhy!

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Out of curiosity I bought a bottle of the Spaten Helles Lager and had it at Lunch with my cheese sandwich. Sooo good. I had forgotten how good a nice German beer could be. I have to join the club and try to make similar later on this year.

spaten20170805_121508.png

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very messed up weekend, and didn't have time to work on my plans for Helles Munich.  Here are my (almost) final thoughts:

 

Keg 1 - 2015 Spring Seasonal, altered to be closer to the Munich.  I'm leaning toward adding a Pale DME and 6oz Pilsner malt, and fill the keg as much as possible to thin down the flavor/color.  I'm worried about the keg overflowing on this one.


Keg 2 - What The Helles, Bach?  Suggested in the link above.  It's not Munich, but I want to try it anyways.
•1 Can Grand Bohemian Czech Pilsner Brewing Extract
•1 Packet Dry Brewing Yeast (under lid of Brewing Extract)
•1 Packet Saflager W-34/70 Dry Lager Yeast
•1 BrewMax LME Softpack - Smooth
•1 Packet Tettnanger Pellet Hops
•1 Muslin Hop Sack
•1 Packet No-Rinse Cleanser


Keg 3 - Alter Keg 2.  Drop the LME and add a Pale DME.  Adding 6oz of Pilsner Malt and 2oz Munich Malt.  Also alter the hops from Tettnanger to Hallertau, which is milder and more in tune with online all-grain recipes.


Keg 4 - Due to lack of imagination, I can't come up with any other recipes for something similar to a Munich Helles using just Mr. Beer products.  Since I have room in the fridge for a fourth keg, I'm going to do the Austin Pils recipe.  Open to suggestions.

 

I'll probably place the order very late today or early tomorrow so that I can get everything by the weekend.

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On ‎8‎/‎5‎/‎2017 at 8:17 PM, Nickfixit said:

Out of curiosity I bought a bottle of the Spaten Helles Lager and had it at Lunch with my cheese sandwich. Sooo good. I had forgotten how good a nice German beer could be. I have to join the club and try to make similar later on this year.

spaten20170805_121508.png

 

and if you think it was good in a green bottle, ask for it on tap next time you go to a German style restaurant

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4 hours ago, MiniYoda said:

very messed up weekend, and didn't have time to work on my plans for Helles Munich.  Here are my (almost) final thoughts:

 

Keg 1 - 2015 Spring Seasonal, altered to be closer to the Munich.  I'm leaning toward adding a Pale DME and 6oz Pilsner malt, and fill the keg as much as possible to thin down the flavor/color.  I'm worried about the keg overflowing on this one.


Keg 2 - What The Helles, Bach?  Suggested in the link above.  It's not Munich, but I want to try it anyways.
•1 Can Grand Bohemian Czech Pilsner Brewing Extract
•1 Packet Dry Brewing Yeast (under lid of Brewing Extract)
•1 Packet Saflager W-34/70 Dry Lager Yeast
•1 BrewMax LME Softpack - Smooth
•1 Packet Tettnanger Pellet Hops
•1 Muslin Hop Sack
•1 Packet No-Rinse Cleanser


Keg 3 - Alter Keg 2.  Drop the LME and add a Pale DME.  Adding 6oz of Pilsner Malt and 2oz Munich Malt.  Also alter the hops from Tettnanger to Hallertau, which is milder and more in tune with online all-grain recipes.


Keg 4 - Due to lack of imagination, I can't come up with any other recipes for something similar to a Munich Helles using just Mr. Beer products.  Since I have room in the fridge for a fourth keg, I'm going to do the Austin Pils recipe.  Open to suggestions.

 

I'll probably place the order very late today or early tomorrow so that I can get everything by the weekend.

You have to get one of the 2g vertical fermenters, that will take care of any question of overflow.

 

But as for #4. I would think to continue the idea from before. So this is my thought for #4 LBK

 

Canadian Blonde HME (standard refill with 2x 6 oz Booster packs)

PM with : the remaining 2 oz Munich malt from #3, the remaining 2 oz Pils malt from #3, 2 oz of Crystal 15 malt (or even the whole 4 oz for really caramelly).

Hop boil in the PM liquid diluted to make 6 cups (if not already) 1/4 oz Tettnanger + 1/4 oz Hallertauer in a bag, boil 10 min and remove and squeeze bag dry into pot

Add 1 pack Pale LME (or DME as it may be lighter color)

Add 1 pack of the booster that came with the HME (to give ABV etc but no color) or 2 packs if you are pessimistic about the ABV from the HME - lol

Use the 34/70 yeast again

 

Sequence I would do. 

- do PM, remove grains, boil hops in liquor, remove/squeeze hops into liquor, set aside to cool

- add  booster and DME into LBK with 1 gal cold water in it, swirl/stir up to dissolve (don't need to sterilize - Cooper's do this - it avoids clumps in brewpot)

- add HME to the 4 cups of boiled water in pot, stir to dissolve

- add HME and hop/PM liquor to LBK, and fill to line with cold water

- pitch when temp < 75F, cool to mid 50s to ferment.

 

You can finesse the Standard /Deluxe refills to get the best price on malt or booster. 

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I've considered LBK #4 to be similar to 3 but swapping out the Bavarian HME with either Canadian or Mexican.  It won't be Helles Munich (even without knowing how the HME is made I can tell that). because Munich seems to require about 80% - 90% Pilsner malt from all grain recipes I've seen.  Based on your recommendation, I might do your suggestion, but stick to 1/2 ounce of Hallertauer, to be more mild in hop flavor.  Also, will do DME, as LME might affect color.  Also I need to research the Crystal 15 (I'm still in learning mode when it comes to different malts).

 

@MRB Josh R, @MRB Tim, et al.......thoughts?

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okay, after reading up on Crystal 15, it's a "no-go" on that one.  The notes say "Crystal malts (also known as "Caramel" malts) are produced in a roaster rather than a kiln.", and "Crystal 15 produces golden hues, and has a mellow, candy like sweetness and a mild toffee flavor."  This pushes the flavor away from Helles Munich.

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3 hours ago, MiniYoda said:

.thoughts?

 

 

You could do like #3 but with a Cerveza and W-34, make a Mexican Lager.

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1 hour ago, MRB Tim said:

 

 

You could do like #3 but with a Cerveza and W-34, make a Mexican Lager.

 

I could but I'm wanting to stick to trying to make a Munich clone.  Perhaps in the near future I will make a lager out of the Mexican Cerveza, Canadian Blonde, Czech Pilsner and American Lager, and have an International Lager shootout.

 

unless people think that might be a little to mad scientist   :rolleyes:

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items ordered and expecting delivery tomorrow.  All this hurry hurry hurry to get recipes figured out, then hurry hurry hurry to order the stuff, and I probably can't brew this weekend.  WAY too much on the personal front to spend time trying to brew all four this weekend.  I'd like to get them all in the fridge at one time, as this takes away my only source to chill beers that I will be drinking.  All this and now I have to wait

 

@Big Sarge, I'm sure you are familiar "hurry up and wait"

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2 hours ago, MiniYoda said:

items ordered and expecting delivery tomorrow.  All this hurry hurry hurry to get recipes figured out, then hurry hurry hurry to order the stuff, and I probably can't brew this weekend.  WAY too much on the personal front to spend time trying to brew all four this weekend.  I'd like to get them all in the fridge at one time, as this takes away my only source to chill beers that I will be drinking.  All this and now I have to wait

 

@Big Sarge, I'm sure you are familiar "hurry up and wait"

How do you think I learned the patience in brewing so quickly?

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One thing I am surprised at. The Spaten is only rated 21 IBUs, but to me it tasted much more than that.

Is it the hop used? or the hop/malt balance that makes it seem more bitter than it is?

I thought it was much more hoppy for its malt than say the  Mr B Pils standard. (From memory, I did not have them side by side),

But maybe side by side I can try the Spaten (21 IBUs) and Sam Adams Boston Lager (30 IBUs).

Becks and Heineken claim around the same IBUs - low 20's too.

 

There - that gives me an excuse :lol:

 

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I don't taste any hop flavor to the Spaten Munich when I drink it.  It's more on the malty side of the scale to me.  However, I drink it from tap, not bottle.  Perhaps I should do a side-by-side comparison

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You shouldn't...

 

4A. Munich Helles
Overall Impression: A clean, malty, gold-colored German
lager with a smooth grainy-sweet malty flavor and a soft, dry
finish. Subtle spicy, floral, or herbal hops and restrained
bitterness help keep the balance malty but not sweet, which
helps make this beer a refreshing, everyday drink.
Aroma: Moderate grainy-sweet malt aroma. Low to
moderately-low spicy, floral, or herbal hop aroma. While a
clean aroma is most desirable, a very low background note of
DMS is not a fault. Pleasant, clean fermentation profile, with
malt dominating the balance. The freshest examples will have
more of a malty-sweet aroma.
Appearance: Medium yellow to pale gold. Clear. Persistent
creamy white head.
Flavor: Moderately malty start with the suggestion of
sweetness, moderate grainy-sweet malt flavor with a soft,
rounded palate impression, supported by a low to medium-low
hop bitterness. The finish is soft and dry, not crisp and biting.
Low to moderately-low spicy, floral or herbal hop flavor. The
malt dominates the hops in the palate, finish, and aftertaste,
but the hops should be noticeable. There should not be any
residual sweetness, simply the impression of maltiness with
restrained bitterness. Very fresh examples will seem sweeter
due to the fresh, rich malt character that can fade with time.
Clean fermentation profile.
Mouthfeel: Medium body. Medium carbonation. Smooth,
well-lagered character.
Comments: A fully-attenuated Pils malt showcase, Helles is a
malt-accentuated beer that is not overly sweet, but rather
focuses on malt flavor with underlying hop bitterness in a
supporting role. Export examples can quickly lose some of the
rich malt character that often suggests sweetness. Helles in
Munich tends to be lighter in all aspects than those outside the
city, which can be more assertive with more body, flavor, and
hop character.
History: Created in Munich in 1894 at the Spaten brewery to
compete with pale Pilsner-type beers. Currently the most
popular style in Southern Germany.
Characteristic Ingredients: Continental Pilsner malt,
traditional German Saazer-type hop varieties, clean German
lager yeast.
Style Comparison: Similar in malt balance and bitterness to
Munich Dunkel, but less malty-sweet in nature and pale rather
than dark. More body and malt presence than a German Pils,
with less hop character throughout. Similar malt profile as a
German Exportbier, but with less hops in the balance.
BJCP Beer Style Guidelines – 2015 Edition 7
Vital Statistics: OG: 1.044 – 1.048
IBUs: 16 – 22 FG: 1.006 – 1.012
SRM: 3 – 5 ABV: 4.7 – 5.4%
Commercial Examples: Augustiner Lagerbier Hell,
Bürgerbräu Wolznacher Hell Naturtrüb, Hacker-Pschorr
Münchner Gold, Löwenbraü Original, Paulaner Premium
Lager, Spaten Premium Lager, Weihenstephaner Original
 

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One done, three to go.  Was good to get back into the hobby, even though I made major dumb <CENSORED> mistakes.  Thermometer that I used to take temps of the mash ripped the mash bag, causing pretty little floaty things to escape the bag.  I had to strain the wort when I put it in the keg.  Also, I poured the LME too quickly, as I got impatient, and that caused clumps that stuck to the pot.  And, I didn't start early enough because I forgot to turn the dish washer on, so I had to wait almost 2 hours.  Still, keg #1 in the fridge, cooling down and almost ready for the yeast

 

Now, three rounds of brewing tomorrow.  Just wondering if anyone out there ever did three brews in one day, one regular and two partial mash.

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1 hour ago, MiniYoda said:

One done, three to go.  Was good to get back into the hobby, even though I made major dumb <CENSORED> mistakes.  Thermometer that I used to take temps of the mash ripped the mash bag, causing pretty little floaty things to escape the bag.  I had to strain the wort when I put it in the keg.  Also, I poured the LME too quickly, as I got impatient, and that caused clumps that stuck to the pot.  And, I didn't start early enough because I forgot to turn the dish washer on, so I had to wait almost 2 hours.  Still, keg #1 in the fridge, cooling down and almost ready for the yeast

 

Now, three rounds of brewing tomorrow.  Just wondering if anyone out there ever did three brews in one day, one regular and two partial mash.

 

you are in for a long day.... my last big brew weekend i did 6 batches total i think... day one was 1 reg (baltic porter straight up) Smitten Bovine (kinda a PM but more a reg) Black Beer'd Porter (PM) and there was a 5 gallon Partial Mash as well (AHS Tis The Saison) day two was 2 5 gallon PMs (which i sadly lost in the shelving crash a week later) 

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Never fails.  Think you have everything planned, and you don't.  I miscalculated, and I'm short a DME.  I'm going to order it now, but keg #4 won't be made today.

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Last keg, Helles with grains Canadian Blonde, is in the fridge.  Temp at pitch was 63.7.  Other kegs are holding in the low 50's with the temp control at 52.

 

Now we wait.  And as we wait, we decide what to do.  I've learned that if you ask 20 economists a question, you'll get 30 different answers.  Based on what I've read in books, online, from this forum, other forums, and on pod casts, how to ferment/condition lagers is about the same thing.  WAY too many different ways of what to do next.  I'm inviting those who know, *everyone*, to post their thoughts on what I do next.

 

1)  The beer is going to live in the keg for about 19-21 days.  The keg I made today is going to ferment for 19 days (bottling this one on Labor day).  What should I do before bottle day:

     a)  remove from the fridge 2 days early for a rest?  Is it called diastolic?

     b)  cold crash for two days?  The three kegs which are partial mash have 1/2 teaspoon of Irish Moss, my first time using (for the record, if you want to buy Irish moss, buy only one bag.  I bought two, and after three kegs, I have enough to last..........quite a long time).  Still I'm going for as much clarity as I can on these, and don't know if Irish Moss will sink to the bottom after a while, or if it might float in the bottle.

     c)  a bit of both?  Out of the fridge for a day or two for a rest, then cold crash for a day or two?

2)  At what temp do I carbonate?  I've seen carbonate at room temp just like regular ales.  If so, would this eliminate the need to rest at room temp above?  Or carbonate at the low 50's like they are fermenting

3)  At what temp do I condition?  Yes, these are lagers, so they will be conditioning for a while, probably past full Oktoberfest.  But I want to make them the best I can.  I've seen everything from condition at room temp to condition as low as 35 degrees.

4)  And in the same theory of "best I can", recommended minimal lagering at the above temp?

 

Thanks

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@MiniYoda  From my experience with MRB lagers, I would recommend the 2-3 day diacetyl rest, but not necessarily the cold-crash.  Carbonate @ room temp. for a couple weeks, then lager in your beer fridge until consumption.  Great experiment, Yoda!

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2 hours ago, MiniYoda said:

Last keg, Helles with grains Canadian Blonde, is in the fridge.  Temp at pitch was 63.7.  Other kegs are holding in the low 50's with the temp control at 52.

 

Now we wait.  And as we wait, we decide what to do.  I've learned that if you ask 20 economists a question, you'll get 30 different answers.  Based on what I've read in books, online, from this forum, other forums, and on pod casts, how to ferment/condition lagers is about the same thing.  WAY too many different ways of what to do next.  I'm inviting those who know, *everyone*, to post their thoughts on what I do next.

 

1)  The beer is going to live in the keg for about 19-21 days.  The keg I made today is going to ferment for 19 days (bottling this one on Labor day).  What should I do before bottle day:

     a)  remove from the fridge 2 days early for a rest?  Is it called diastolic?

     b)  cold crash for two days?  The three kegs which are partial mash have 1/2 teaspoon of Irish Moss, my first time using (for the record, if you want to buy Irish moss, buy only one bag.  I bought two, and after three kegs, I have enough to last..........quite a long time).  Still I'm going for as much clarity as I can on these, and don't know if Irish Moss will sink to the bottom after a while, or if it might float in the bottle.

     c)  a bit of both?  Out of the fridge for a day or two for a rest, then cold crash for a day or two?

2)  At what temp do I carbonate?  I've seen carbonate at room temp just like regular ales.  If so, would this eliminate the need to rest at room temp above?  Or carbonate at the low 50's like they are fermenting

3)  At what temp do I condition?  Yes, these are lagers, so they will be conditioning for a while, probably past full Oktoberfest.  But I want to make them the best I can.  I've seen everything from condition at room temp to condition as low as 35 degrees.

4)  And in the same theory of "best I can", recommended minimal lagering at the above temp?

 

Thanks

1) You technically should watch your beer like a hawk. Wait for the krausen to fall and then do the DR. You want to hit about 75-80% attenuation. I have done a number of things, lowering 5 degrees everyday until 35 degrees or the dangerous method of "crashing" to 35 immediately and then lagering in the fermenter.

 

2), carb at 70

 

3) you get benefits from each. Id condition for 1/2 warm and 1/2 cold of your target drinking date

 

4) ideally, this is crazy, theres so many lagering methods now. Any way, if its 1.040, then lager for 4 weeks, 1.050, 5 weeks so on and so on.

 

methods of making a lager

 

ferment to 75%, DR (and DH) for a few days. DR is usually good after 24 hours but if youre dry hopping then youll want some time at that warm temp. Crash to 35, lager for how I explained in #4 point.

 

ferment at ideal temp, at 50%, raise 5 degrees, 75% raise 5 degrees until terminal, crash and keg.

 

in the end as i always say, its your beer. Do what you want 

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