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doc280

Metallic Grass like taste, need help

57 posts in this topic

I'll disagree with both your conclusions.  

 

One Step / Easy Clean, as well as StarSan, are NO RINSE sanitizers.  So don't rinse.  Simply drain it out and fill the bottles.

 

Whether you use cheap table sugar, corn sugar, DME, honey, or natural sugar you won't notice any taste difference from that small amount of sugar.  None.  I use cheap table sugar.  


Alter your step 5.  Don't cover the kettle while it's cooling.  

 

Also, eliminate the transfer to a secondary fermenter.  Since there is no reason to do so, it only adds risk in the process.

 

If these changes don't help, buy your kits elsewhere, perhaps the supplier is grinding them months in advance and they are stale.

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7 hours ago, doc280 said:

The One Step, from my understanding works by releasing oxygen during its sanitizing process. 
So when using One Step to sanitize the fermentation equipment should not be a problem because oxygen introduced to the wort is a good thing.

However when using the One Step to sanitize the bottles could be the problem. The residual One Step, left in the bottles after sanitizing, maybe introducing oxygen to the beer after fermentation which could be leading to the bad taste.

Just a theory I am running with, hence the reason for the rinse after sanitizing. Adding distilled water to each bottle, for the rinse, from a sealed gallon jug, seems fairly low risk for contamination.

The use of corn sugar was really the only other thing I could change to the bottling process, which could, maybe, effect the taste.

 

This isn't true. The One-Step/No-Rinse (same product) becomes hydrogen peroxide when mixed with water and the ppm of oxygen does NOT affect the flavor or carbonation in any way. This product has been used in homebrewing and professional brewing since the early 90s with great results. There is no need to  rinse the No-Rinse cleanser, hence the name.

Corn sugar does not affect the flavor of the beer, nor does any other sugar you might add. Even honey or brown sugar isn't enough to add flavor to the beer when priming, unless it is a really light beer. Such a small amount of sugar ferments out in the carbonation process leaving no flavor behind. That is why I always recommend priming with corn or cane sugar  (or carb drops) because they are cheaper than the other options and none of them will add any flavor.

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Well I guess the point is something is not right and I am tasting an off favor.

The Rye Brown Ale was fermented and needed to be bottled and there were only really two things I could think of to change during the bottling process.

You guys maybe correct, the rinse and the corn sugar may not make any difference at all. However the definition of insanity is to replete the same actions and expect a different outcome. So I think it was worth the try and if the off favor persist, I have the IPA fermenting which I have used distilled water and sanitised with Star San.

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Is it possible oxidation is occurring during the cold crash since the headspace is being reduced, by filling the LBK to 2 1/2 gallons? 

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i think rick hit it. your supplier is probably using crap ingredients or really old.

 

tap water if chlorinated makes rubbery or band aid tastes.

aeration/oxidation issues usually make wet cardboard tastes.. ive actually got that once in a wine.

covering the pot during boil or while cooling causes dms to fall back into your wort... makes sulfury cabbage tastes.

temp too hot while fermenting? apple cider.

mostly pilsen grain bill and not boiling hard enough or long enough makes sulfur tastes.

really really old hops improperly stored make strong cheese like smells and tastes.. think unwashed feet.

oxidized grain can make metallic flavors. <-  rick mentioned this.  damn he's good! i had to look it up.

 

re pot- ive done batches in stainless and aluminum. ive used an old oxidized aluminum pot once or twice without any significant impact.

 

since you just cant get it to come out right...  if you have about 100 bux laying about and think you will eventually go into full grain brewing down the line you can invest in a grain mill. change your dealer. get the grains uncrushed and when ready to brew crush them yourself.  or do what i did on small batches.  get your steeping grains uncrushed and when ready,  put them in a bag and smash them with a rolling pin...  you are cracking not pulverizing the grain. you dont want to turn it into flour. my first time doing this i used a hammer and beat the snot out of them. lol...  live and learn.

 

i got a northern brewer all grain kit. the grain sat crushed in the plastic they shipped in for 1.5 months.  it came out just fine.  i imagine it is because nb tends to use quality ingredients and takes the care to immediately seal what they crush before shipping.  some other vendors might bulk crush grain and leave it sit open for months before selling. who knows? if you got your kits from NB then maybe things have changed there? who knows. diagnosing off flavors is sometimes like playing doctor or auto mechanic.

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6 hours ago, zorak1066 said:

Diagnosing off flavors is sometimes like playing doctor or auto mechanic.

 

Fortunately, I was a better EMT and I am a better car mechanic than a describer of off flavors.

 

I did take some advice and let a local home brewer sample what I had. He was able the pick out the gains and hops used. He also said it was just a touch over carbonated and being at the upper range of the screwy brewer's recommendation, this is no surprise. 

The big thing was he was not getting the flavors, I was getting. He said he was tasting oxygen in the samples, while finishing each sample off saying they were not bad at all.

So maybe my tastebuds are just very offended by oxidation. This is the reason I was asking about the cold crash and the possibility of it drawing in oxygen during the process.

All these kits are from Northern Brewer and are supposed to be packed fresh, plus the kits have had different types of gain.

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Northern Brewer should be good, although they were bought by AB-InBev...

 

I suggest you review common beer off flavors: http://howtobrew.com/book/section-4/is-my-beer-ruined/common-off-flavors 

 

14 hours ago, doc280 said:

Is it possible oxidation is occurring during the cold crash since the headspace is being reduced, by filling the LBK to 2 1/2 gallons? 

 

No, it's not possible.  I brew 2 1/2 gallons in the LBK all the time.  

 

Stop doing secondaries.  I've said it before, and I'll say it again.  Stop.  

 

And, uncover the pot during cooling.  

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Not all have went into a secondary and I will try the next batch uncovered while in the ice bath.

 

The IPA I have in the primary now, the instructions say two weeks in the primary, transfer to the secondary for two weeks, dry hop for a week then bottled. Rick are you saying skip the secondary, but follow the rest of the instructions and times?

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If you are transferring to secondary, how are you accomplishing this?  If you are using a racking cane to move the beer from a 5 gallon carboy to an LBK then try replacing the racking cane and tubing.

 

I have only used a secondary twice and that was when I racked my initial batch onto cherry puree and recently I split a 5 gallon batch in the middle of fermentation and added orange zest to half of it.  The 1st half stayed in the original fermentor.

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1 hour ago, BDawg62 said:

If you are transferring to secondary, how are you accomplishing this?  If you are using a racking cane to move the beer from a 5 gallon carboy to an LBK then try replacing the racking cane and tubing.

 

I have only used a secondary twice and that was when I racked my initial batch onto cherry puree and recently I split a 5 gallon batch in the middle of fermentation and added orange zest to half of it.  The 1st half stayed in the original fermentor.

I transferred from the primary LBK to the secondary LBK, by way of tubing, making sure the end of the tube was in the bottom of the secondary so no splashing occurred.

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the same general guideline used here for mr beer works in practice for just about every beer batch size and every style :

 

ferment 3 weeks.

check for gravity to be stable.

bottle with priming sugar

move bottles to a 70+f room.

let them sit for 4 weeks.

chill and enjoy.

 

i have been doing this for nearly every batch for about 5 years.  i have only secondary fermented maybe 2 beer batches. one was a RIS.  the other was an all grain batch that just would not clear. it is not necessary.  secondary fermentation opens your process to a high risk of oxidation, infection, etc.   my RIS i was careful to the extreme. slow transfer.. top off the minimal headspace with co2 (food grade containered.. no oil)..  etc etc etc. i could have just bottled , carbed and let it sit in the bottle for 2-3 months or more.

 

nearly all of northern brewer's kits use a secondary fermenter i think.  again.. not necessary.  leave the beer in the fermenter. the co2 blankets the beer and will keep it from oxidation while the flavors meld and better themselves.   i dont worry about headspace in the primary over 3 weeks. i have a 6 gallon bucket now with a 3 gallon batch sitting unopened in week 2 of fermentation.  it's fine.

 

to dry hop...  use a sanitized mesh hop sack. add the hops. add a sanitized shot glass for weight. tie it off with a sanitized string.

before opening your fermenter, be it a bucket or lbk...  give it a spray of starsan or other no rinse sanitzer. make sure your air or heater is not running if anywhere near a vent.

 

clean hands...  gently open the fermenter to not jostle it around. gently lower the hop sack in and let it sink. seal it up.

 

doing a hop sack like this when dry hopping keeps risk of contamination and oxidation down. the weight keeps the hops in full contact with the beer. this improves your utilization of the hops. . . and makes bottling easier. no cold crash needed.

 

if you dont have a mesh hop sack..  ask the wife or gf for a nylon knee high. wash it. sanitize it. there ya go. instant hop sack. or go to home depot in the paint section and get a 1 gallon paint strainer mesh bag.  wash / sanitize...tada.  i use them all the time.. both 1 and 5 gallon size.

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17 hours ago, doc280 said:

Not all have went into a secondary and I will try the next batch uncovered while in the ice bath.

 

The IPA I have in the primary now, the instructions say two weeks in the primary, transfer to the secondary for two weeks, dry hop for a week then bottled. Rick are you saying skip the secondary, but follow the rest of the instructions and times?

 

I don't know their instructions.  Here is what most of us follow:

 

3 weeks fermenting, never use a secondary.  Dry hop at day 14.  Ferment at 65 wort temp (Mr. Beer yeast, S-05, S-04...). 

 

Bottle and store at 70 or higher, not exceeding 80, for four weeks.

 

Put 1 bottle in the fridge for 3 days, then try it.  Then put the rest in, only as you need them to drink, for at least 3 days.

 

I have been brewing for 6 years and have never used a secondary.  

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1 hour ago, RickBeer said:

 

I don't know their instructions.  Here is what most of us follow:

 

3 weeks fermenting, never use a secondary.  Dry hop at day 14.  Ferment at 65 wort temp (Mr. Beer yeast, S-05, S-04...). 

 

Bottle and store at 70 or higher, not exceeding 80, for four weeks.

 

Put 1 bottle in the fridge for 3 days, then try it.  Then put the rest in, only as you need them to drink, for at least 3 days.

 

I have been brewing for 6 years and have never used a secondary.  

I  have been using the Mr Beer since 2013 and have never used a secondary. The beer is usually pretty clear. (Not crystal like filtered  beer, see the beer pics I have posted) but it depends more on the yeast I think. I store my beer at mid 60's in basement. The carbonation takes a little longer than at 70 deg but it still gets there. 

 

I think it may depend how long you want to wait before drinking it. For me it also depends a bit on the yeast. Yeasts that are highly flocculent give me much clearer beer.

I can see if you are wanting to force carbonate and drink within a couple weeks, then you may want to accelerate the clearing process.

I can see if you want to bulk prime before bottling a secondary container would be needed to avoid mixing trub in.

So there may be good reasons to use a secondary depending on one's process.

 

I like things easy with minimal cleanup so I use just the LBK.

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Ok, this is what I have planned for the IPA, which is in the fermenter.

 

The fermentation of the IPA has been kept at 62F and seems happy, so I will keep it their.

 

Day 14 in the fermenter, dry hop, using a sanitized hop sack weighted with a 1 inch glass cat's eye. Again making sure everything is sanitized and gently place the hop sack in the LBK.

 

Just plan to skip the cold crash with this one and if the beer is drinkable, will  brew another batch to compare the difference.

 

Day 21 rinse my already clean bottles and sanitize them with Star San. I have some corn sugar left, so I am going to prime with both corn sugar and table sugar.

Bottle using my new bottling wand.

Cap and store at 73F for four weeks.

 

Does this sound about right?

 

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Yes.  Then put only a bottle or two in the frig for 3 days.  Taste, if good, then only put in what you'll drink 3 days later, and keep the rest out at room temp.  

 

3 hours ago, Nickfixit said:

I can see if you want to bulk prime before bottling a secondary container would be needed to avoid mixing trub in.

 

Batch priming does indeed involve putting the beer in a second container (I use a slimline purchased at Walmart).  However, that's not a secondary, because zero fermentation or resting is taking place.  Beer and sugar solution goes in, then come out within minutes.  It solely serves to mix the two together without stirring up the trub in the fermenter.  I just did 44 bottles of Mr. Beer Apricot Wheat, except I use 1 can of apricots per batch, and 1/2 the Cardamom.  

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7 hours ago, RickBeer said:

.  I just did 44 bottles of Mr. Beer Apricot Wheat, except I use 1 can of apricots per batch, and 1/2 the Cardamom.  

Did you blend up the apricots? put them whole in a bag? or what?

 

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11 hours ago, Nickfixit said:

Did you blend up the apricots? put them whole in a bag? or what?

 

 

I add the fruit at 2 weeks.  See step #6.

APRICOT WHEAT INSTRUCTIONS

RECIPE INCLUDES:

  • 1 Can Bavarian Weissbier Brewing Extract
  • 1 Packet Dry Brewing Yeast (under lid of Brewing Extract)
  • 1 BrewMax LME SoftPack - Pale
  • 1 Packet No-Rinse Cleanser

YOU PROVIDE:

  • 2 Cans of Apricots in Heavy Syrup (16 oz.)
  • 1 teaspoonful Cardamon seed, toasted

WARNING: Due to the large amount of fruit, your keg may overflow or explode! Maintaining proper fermentation temperatures is key to preventing this problem. (See brewing instructions for details).

Additional Information


  • OG: 1.044 (approx.) -- FG: 1.011 (approx.)
  • Flavor: Fruity
  • ABV (alc/vol): 4.5%
  • SRM (Color): 4
  • IBU (Bitterness): 19
  • BJCP Style: 29. Fruit Beer - 29A. Specialty Fruit Beer

Ferme­ntation

Carbo­nation

Bottle Condi­tioning

 

Total Brew­ing Time

3 Weeks 3 Weeks 1 - 3 Weeks = 2 Months

 

 

STEP 1: SANITIZING

Follow the steps outlined in your Mr. Beer Kit Instructions. (You can find a copy of these instructions to download by visiting our help desk.)


NOTE: BE SURE TO SANITIZE EVERYTHING THAT WILL COME INTO CONTACT WITH YOUR BEER. 
 

STEP 2: BREWING

Brewing beer is the process of combining a starch source (in this case, a malt brewing extract) with yeast. Once combined, the yeast eats the sugars in the malt, producing alcohol and carbon dioxide (CO2). This process is called fermentation. 
 

 

STEP 3: BOTTLING AND CARBONATING

Follow the steps outlined in your Mr. Beer Kit Instructions. (You can find a copy of these instructions to download by visiting our help desk.)

    1. In your sanitized blender, purée the fruit with the syrup, and set aside to add later.
    2. Remove the yeast packet from under the lid of the can of the Brewing Extract, then place the unopened can and LME softpack in hot tap water.
    3. Add the cardamom seeds to your 3-quart or larger pot, then increase the heat to medium, toast the seeds until they give off a faint aroma. Using the measuring cup, pour 4 cups of water into the pot. Bring water to a boil, stirring occasionally, then remove from heat
    4. Open the Brewing Extract and LME softpack, and pour the contents into the hot mixture. Stir until thoroughly mixed. This mixture of unfermented beer is called wort.
    5. Fill keg with cold tap water to the #1 mark on the back.
    6. Pour the wort into the keg, and then bring the volume of the keg to the #2 mark by adding more cold water. Add in pureed fruit. Stir vigorously with the spoon or whisk. 
    7. Sprinkle the yeast packet into the keg, and screw on the lid. Do not stir. 
    8. Put your keg in a location with a consistent temperature between 65° and 80° F (18.3°-26.6° C) and out of direct sunlight. After approximately 24 hours, you will be able to see the fermentation process happening by shining a flashlight into the keg. You'll see the yeast in action in the wort. The liquid will be opaque and milky, you will see bubbles rising in the liquid, and there will be bubbles on the surface.
    9. You’ll ferment for 21 days total. Your fermentation will usually reach its peak in 2 to 5 days (this is also known as “high krausen”). You may see a layer of foam on top of the wort, and sediment will accumulate at the bottom of the fermenter. This is totally normal. Complete fermentation will take approximately 2 weeks. After high krausen the foam and activity will subside and your batch will appear to be dormant. Your beer is still fermenting. The yeast is still at work slowly finishing the fermentation process.

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I know I am bad, but I wanted a brown ale to go along with an aged steak which I was preparing. The Private Rye was bottled two weeks prior and following it's instructions, it was ready to go. So I place the two trub bottles in the refrigerator 48 hrs prior to meal time.

 

Now the only things I have changed with this batch -vs- my failed batches are the use of us-05, instead of u-04, the rinsing of the bottles with distilled water after sanitizing with One Step and corn sugar instead of table sugar.

 

At the first sip I thought I tasted a slight hint of the off favor I had got with the previous batches, but once drinking more I no longer noticed any off flavor and started enjoying the creamy biscuit, caramel, and cocoa flavors. Not the best summertime beer, very rich, but goes great with a good steak.

 

Looking forward to returning back to Private Rye in another two weeks. 

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You're not drinking out of the bottle, are you?

 

And how do you have TWO trub bottles?  You're not emptying the trub into bottles, are you?

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2 hours ago, RickBeer said:

You're not drinking out of the bottle, are you?

 

And how do you have TWO trub bottles?  You're not emptying the trub into bottles, are you?

Drinking out of the a bottle, No, I am civilized, well at least my wife has got me to that point.

 

Two trub bottles, because there are two LBKs.

 

The last remaining beer, which is sitting on the trub, in each fermenter, is filled into a bottle. Cold cashing keeps the trub cake intact and out of the bottles. I call the last bottle, being filled, from each LBK, the "trub bottle", because the beer was sitting on the trub, the bottle is not always full and after the bottle is filled I prime it with the estimated proper amount of sugar to volume. This is the only bottle I prime after filling, being as I am unsure of the amount of beer which will be in the bottle.

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Sounds good.

 

Just wanted to make sure you weren't drinking trub, or mixing it in the bottle, then noticing a taste problem.

 

Drinking out of a glass, even for beer not carbonated in the bottle with sugar, is essential for proper tasting.  The NOSE needs to be part of the process, which is why you see new cans removing most/all of the top.  

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Ok, I got the IPA dry hopped yesterday. Boiled the hop bags, the two shooter marbles and then added the hops to the each bag, tying them off. Placed a bag, gently, into each of the LBKs and they slipped away into the depths.

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