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Conditioning/Cider flavor

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1 hour ago, MRB Tim said:

Man this is such a wholesome thread. Just wanted to add my $0.02 on the twang issue.

 

I don't think we've ever disputed that liquid extracts can tend to have a twang. Every method of brewing has its pros and cons, none is the "right" way to brew. The advantages of HME are that it's great for beginners to learn on, doesn't take much time, space, or equipment, and I think the smaller batch size is an advantage to a lot of brewers. The disadvantages, as I see them, are less control over some factors, darker color, and occasional twang. 

 

To my palette, some refills have more twang than others. I get more of it with Diablo than Long play, and more with Blonde than Weissbier. So, that's one factor to consider. Another is that doing a grain steep or hop boil can reduce it pretty drastically. I find that more important than temp or sanitation, in terms of the twang aspect.  

 

I would also just add that I've brewed hundreds of HME batches by now, and only had a few batches where twang was strong and unpleasant enough to impact my enjoyment of the beer. Given our policy of replacing bad batches and, I think, our flexibility, I find that to be a pretty low-risk proposition. 

 

 

 

Those are a lot of reasons why I stick with HME.  I like doing two gallon batches; five gallons is just too much to work with, bottle, etc.  Plus, if I'm not too fond of the final product, I'd rather have two gallons to slog through than five.  The darker color doesn't bother me.  If it tastes good I'm happy.  And as I posted earlier, doing PMs and hop additions can cancel the twang pretty handily.  When I had family visit earlier this year they preferred some of the MRB brews we sampled to some of the craft beers we had while eating out.  That was a nice little ego boost.  :)

And to me, this is a fun hobby.  I spend a couple of hours every ten days or so bottling and brewing, and I get tasty beer as a result.  When I look at a setup like @Creeps McLane has posted photos of I think "Man, that looks so cool...but it also looks like work."  It's what he enjoys doing, but it's not for me; I don't want my fun hobby to become a chore.

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What does the "twang" taste like? Does it still taste like good beer but has a slight twang to it? The batches I get are not pleasant to drink and taste all the same. I get no malt or hop character. Everything is dominated by this off flavor. So maybe it's not "twang" for me because people have success with these recipes and so far I have not. I've done refills, basic recipes, and a bunch of PMs and they all taste the same to me. I'm at a complete loss as to what's causing my issue. I would love to go all grain but if I can't make a decent beer with extract then how can I? Lol 

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29 minutes ago, MRB Tim said:

Man this is such a wholesome thread. Just wanted to add my $0.02 on the twang issue.

 

I don't think we've ever disputed that liquid extracts can tend to have a twang. Every method of brewing has its pros and cons, none is the "right" way to brew. The advantages of HME are that it's great for beginners to learn on, doesn't take much time, space, or equipment, and I think the smaller batch size is an advantage to a lot of brewers. The disadvantages, as I see them, are less control over some factors, darker color, and occasional twang. 

 

To my palette, some refills have more twang than others. I get more of it with Diablo than Long play, and more with Blonde than Weissbier. So, that's one factor to consider. Another is that doing a grain steep or hop boil can reduce it pretty drastically. I find that more important than temp or sanitation, in terms of the twang aspect.  

 

I would also just add that I've brewed hundreds of HME batches by now, and only had a few batches where twang was strong and unpleasant enough to impact my enjoyment of the beer. Given our policy of replacing bad batches and, I think, our flexibility, I find that to be a pretty low-risk proposition. 

 

 

Good points @MRB Tim

I enjoy creating different recipes in small batches and view the MB HME's just like a base malt and then build from there.

 

I look at my inventory and I'm pretty happy with what I have to chose from for a brew day. HME's, cans of LME's, and about 40-50 lbs of base and specialty malts. Lol, it's like making spaghetti sauce! Do I want to make it from scratch or do I want to use a big jar of sauce off the rack and add to that?

 

Like you say each has its pros and cons and I'm sure enjoying exploring them all and gradually getting much better as a brewer. This forum, it's resources, and helpful more experienced brewers are the reason. Also, maybe I have old tastebuds, but once I started with partial mashes using at least 8-12oz grains I haven't had off flavors or twang.

 

 

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19 minutes ago, youdontknowme311 said:

What does the "twang" taste like? Does it still taste like good beer but has a slight twang to it? The batches I get are not pleasant to drink and taste all the same. I get no malt or hop character. Everything is dominated by this off flavor. So maybe it's not "twang" for me because people have success with these recipes and so far I have not. I've done refills, basic recipes, and a bunch of PMs and they all taste the same to me. I'm at a complete loss as to what's causing my issue. I would love to go all grain but if I can't make a decent beer with extract then how can I? Lol 

 

That's what it is to me.  I've wondered in the past if some people might be more susceptible to it than others.  Kind of like how some people enjoy cilantro but others abhor it.

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30 minutes ago, Shrike said:

 

Those are a lot of reasons why I stick with HME.  I like doing two gallon batches; five gallons is just too much to work with, bottle, etc.  Plus, if I'm not too fond of the final product, I'd rather have two gallons to slog through than five.  The darker color doesn't bother me.  If it tastes good I'm happy.  And as I posted earlier, doing PMs and hop additions can cancel the twang pretty handily.  When I had family visit earlier this year they preferred some of the MRB brews we sampled to some of the craft beers we had while eating out.  That was a nice little ego boost.  :)

And to me, this is a fun hobby.  I spend a couple of hours every ten days or so bottling and brewing, and I get tasty beer as a result.  When I look at a setup like @Creeps McLane has posted photos of I think "Man, that looks so cool...but it also looks like work."  It's what he enjoys doing, but it's not for me; I don't want my fun hobby to become a chore.

That is the great thing isn't it? Having fun no matter whether you prefer small batches and minimal equipment or a larger set up like Creeps or yet a bigger bbl operation like kedogn! I seem to be getting more stuff, but doubt I want to get much bigger than 2.5-3 gal. batches, cause I like the variety.

Lol, that said I wouldn't mind a big enough kettle to brew 5 gal. and split it into two fermenters!

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2 hours ago, youdontknowme311 said:

What does the "twang" taste like? Does it still taste like good beer but has a slight twang to it? The batches I get are not pleasant to drink and taste all the same. I get no malt or hop character. Everything is dominated by this off flavor. So maybe it's not "twang" for me because people have success with these recipes and so far I have not. I've done refills, basic recipes, and a bunch of PMs and they all taste the same to me. I'm at a complete loss as to what's causing my issue. I would love to go all grain but if I can't make a decent beer with extract then how can I? Lol 

It's a lingering sweet aftertaste that comes from extract, either LME or HME, can produce it. DME apparently tends not too, but I haven't used it before.

http://www.love2brew.com/articles.asp?id=487

Check out this link on twang and ways to get around it. BIAB is easy solution but a longer brew day. For me partial mashes with the craft refills and hop additions in IPA styles have worked very well.

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6 hours ago, MRB Tim said:

Every method of brewing has its pros and cons, none is the "right" way to brew

As cheesy or corny as it sounds, I’ve always felt that where ever you are is where you should be and that is the right way to brew.  I remember catching so much crap for doing Mr. Beer, yet I was right where I needed to be and that was, at that time, the right way to brew.  I am not one of those who have so much talent they can do anything. I am one of those kinds where I have to bang my head against the big green wall over and over and over again before It sticks.  Bottom line is every little step in Brewing has different things for different people and when you are there... it’s the ‘right’ way to brew, in my “been there done that” opinion. :) 

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17 hours ago, Creeps McLane said:

To quote my brew buddy “the worst beer ive ever brewed still got me drunk”. He told me that the other day and i couldnt have agreed more

For me, I don’t brew to get drunk.  My brother, way back in the day, tried telling me that I only brewed because it’s “a cheap drunk”. Then I explained to him all of the costs that went into all of the equipment that was filling my garage at the time.  

 

Ive said many times that if I could find, or brew, a 0.0% ABV that tastes damn like what it should if it had alcohol in it, I’d be happy (and possibly rich). On my cruise last month I mostly drank Heineken 0.0%. While a tad thinner, it tasted just like Heineken (for better or for worse lol). I drank a case and 1/2 at least the last couple days of that sailing lol 

 

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16 hours ago, Creeps McLane said:

I’m a freak for control and this isn’t a hobby that I’m ok with not putting the time into what I enjoy sitting down and enjoying on a daily basis.

My only thoughts on that are:  I get the control part.  It’s why I went AG. I’ve said many times that when I brewed my first AG batch all I could think was “If this sucks, it’s *all* on me!”  Luckily that first recipe went on to be the 1st award-winning beer from Manfish.  Second, if your plan is to take this away from being a “Neat Little Hobby” and to the professional

level,  just remember what I still struggle with, and that is “You’re tastebuds really don’t mean sh*t!”  There are a few, literally like 3, Manfish beers that I am personally not sold on.  Yet, well, people drink them and those kegs sell and fast. It’s a double edged sword really. 

 

 

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24 minutes ago, kedogn said:

There are a few, literally like 3, Manfish beers that I am personally not sold on.  Yet, well, people drink them and those kegs sell and fast. It’s a double edged sword really. 

 

Most of my recipes that I don't really like all that much sell very well, and all my pet favorites sit all-but-unnoticed, appreciated only by the true connoisseurs. I think I might just have bad taste.

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@ MrBTim.  Maybe we need a HME/Twang chart, based on brewer's experience.

That can serve 2 purposes:

one - to guide brewers that are twang intolerant towards beer they like better, and

two - to guide Mr Beer/Cooper's HME designers towards making them all less susceptible to twang.

You cannot get improvement so easily unless you get the feedback. Having lots of experience samples will be good.

 

I will say I have had twangy Oktoberfest before now, and more recently have been avoiding it, but this last batch I had a really fresh can (BB2020) and fermented at low temps and had a PM and did not add extra malt but used booster and I have no twang at bottling.

I have some Diablo plain in the LBK due to bottle next week. I will see how that is.

 

I do think having a score card would help.

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11 minutes ago, Big Sarge said:

I thought the going rumor is that they got caught up in a beer-shipping sting operation? :ph34r:

For real though!!! @MrWhy had just done his first BIAB and he was messaging me about shipping some of it to me. I think i sent him something right? That double IPA he made the recipe for. And i never heard from him again. No beer made it to me, he never confirmed he received my package. Just disappeared. Strange

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16 minutes ago, Creeps McLane said:

For real though!!! @MrWhy had just done his first BIAB and he was messaging me about shipping some of it to me. I think i sent him something right? That double IPA he made the recipe for. And i never heard from him again. No beer made it to me, he never confirmed he received my package. Just disappeared. Strange

Strange indeed. It definitely sucks when a regular falls of the face of the earth like that. 

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I was just reading up on the comments, thinking if it doesn't seem to be controlled or affected by brewing temps, or the way the beer was handled post bottling, etc and several experiments have came about what else could be a possibility.  Then it hit me, something possibly overlooked in the in process, which we don't even put our beer into, or even use other than while making the wort!?  The can the HME comes in!   I am not saying its a sure thing, but how often do you buy can goods and they have an off flavor, or aluminum, steel, etc cans have a metallic odor and taste to them.  What if that flavor/odor is lending itself into the HME as it is stored or even warmed to get it out of the can?  Anyone think its possible or am I thinking way outside the box?

 

I did find this article on the subject of LME vs DME

 

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/how-to-brew/lme-vs-dme-which-is-best-for-your-brewing/

 

Which says this......

 

"While LME is said to have a shelf life of up to two years under ideal conditions (cool, dark and dry), it does have the tendency to experience degradation over time. The color of LME can nearly double when stored improperly and/or for long periods of time.
This darkening can be the cause of off flavors reminiscent to licorice, molasses, ballpoint pen and soap. Combined, these off flavors are likely the stale, “extract twang” people sometimes experience."

 

Those would be twang flavors for sure, and not fitting into the other category of other off flavors developed by high fermentation, poor handling, etc

 

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42 minutes ago, deuce2005 said:

I was just reading up on the comments, thinking if it doesn't seem to be controlled or affected by brewing temps, or the way the beer was handled post bottling, etc and several experiments have came about what else could be a possibility.  Then it hit me, something possibly overlooked in the in process, which we don't even put our beer into, or even use other than while making the wort!?  The can the HME comes in!   I am not saying its a sure thing, but how often do you buy can goods and they have an off flavor, or aluminum, steel, etc cans have a metallic odor and taste to them.  What if that flavor/odor is lending itself into the HME as it is stored or even warmed to get it out of the can?  Anyone think its possible or am I thinking way outside the box?

 

I did find this article on the subject of LME vs DME

 

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/how-to-brew/lme-vs-dme-which-is-best-for-your-brewing/

 

Which says this......

 

"While LME is said to have a shelf life of up to two years under ideal conditions (cool, dark and dry), it does have the tendency to experience degradation over time. The color of LME can nearly double when stored improperly and/or for long periods of time.
This darkening can be the cause of off flavors reminiscent to licorice, molasses, ballpoint pen and soap. Combined, these off flavors are likely the stale, “extract twang” people sometimes experience."

 

Those would be twang flavors for sure, and not fitting into the other category of other off flavors developed by high fermentation, poor handling, etc

 

You could be on to something. HME comes in a can, LME in a plastic jar, dme in a bag. I have never had a twang with LME. Ive never really done a straight up DME batch so i cant speak on that. 

 

It definitely is more present in higher fermentation temps in my opinion. But its not so much the fermentation temp as it is in the mash temp in which the HME is made. Extracts are usually made to cover many different styles of beer so they shoot for a mash temp somewhere in the middle of the spectrum so brewers can use them in a wider range of beers. I think coopers mashes at a higher temp than say for example briess. Possibly the hopping of the wort also contributes to this taste. 

 

Im going to nerd out for a second here.

 

when you mash between 130-150 you break down the beta amalyse enzymes (more coxplex) which get you a higher ABV and a drier beer but it takes longer. When you mash 154-167 you break down alpha amalyse enzymes. You get lower abv which means a sweeter taste and more body. This is why i usually mash at 152 to hope to get the best of both worlds depending on the style. Im guessing coopers is above 154, im guessing 157-160 for a quicker  conversion of the starches into fermentable sugars. Then they boil under vacuum pressure to concentrate the wort for us. That then denatures the enzymes and locks in that wort profile. If you were running a business wouldn’t you do the less costly and time productive way?

 

coopers is a giant in the beer game. They know what they’re doing. I dont doubt the same HME we use is the same wort recipe they use for their beers.

 

I do think the hops play a part in some way. Hops have sugars too. If you dry hop a beer youll get another Little fermentation after and everything that goes along with it.  Thats why breweries dry hop and let it sit for awhile cuz youll get things like DMS if you’re not patient. 

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Typically I have has fairly old HMEs, now I am mostly caught up and using HMEs within BB date. and some are really fresh (BB2020 e.g.) 

This is a factor that could go into the Twang chart I mentioned too.

it caqn't hurt to use fresh HMEs of course.

 

I also though have had some twang using Briess LME  e.g. I could only get Vienna extract in LME not DME. And I got more taste than I expected from it.

Very dark LME I had no problems with though even old.

So I have not kept rigorous notes, and I cannot point to any consistent factor.

 

The answer though is in volumes of data so back to the "twang chart".

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Well, I stand corrected on my brews at least, I had an odd like off flavor, hard to describe, tasted like a cidery yeast.  Sorry not good at describing off flavors.  I follow the directions 21 days in the LBK, about as long conditioning in the bottle, and then a few days in the fridge.  I have since changed my mind like many others.  I might have rushed the whole process.  I noticed one I drank today which has been bottled since sometime later August didn't taste half bad, and I was enjoying it instead of just choking it down.  I really think after reading the instructions carefully that my beer might have been still fermenting, as the beer had some sweet taste to it when I bottled.  So I might not have had off flavors at all, but really just normal quick fermentation jitters, and lack of patience!

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On ‎9‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 10:22 PM, Big Sarge said:

I thought the going rumor is that they got caught up in a beer-shipping sting operation? :ph34r:

I hope the Mr. Beer competition requiring entries to be shipped to Tucson is not part of that.  Maybe they only address the sting to those that make competitive beers lol.

The Federal Beer Investigators will be on it.😮

That dumb rule about shipping beer needs to change - it would be no commercial competition issue for limit of say 1 liter (or 2x 12 oz.)  per pkg.

 

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