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Recently brewed a2 gal all grain BIAB SMASH recipe, using Cascade hops and Maris Otter. Could that same recipe be used with different hops? IE. Can hops be directly "substituted" for a different flavor beer, without adjusting the quantities and addition times? That way I can buy grains in bulk. 6-7 lbs a time at local brew supply costing a fortune.

 

2 Gal, Electric BIAB. Mr beer LBK.

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You can definitely use a different hop the next time.  SMASH recipes are the best way to test what different ingredients do to beer.  By only changing 1 component of the recipe you get a feel for the change that ingredient makes.  If you used 2 row instead of Maris Otter with Cascade you would also end up with a different beer than the one you brewed.  I would use a brew software to calculate your recipe. Brewers friend has a good one that is free.   https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/calculator

 

Different hops have different levels of Alpha Acids that determine bitterness.  Cascade which you used in this batch is typically around 7 % AA where something like Citra is around 12% AA.  Using the same amount of Citra and you did Cascade will result in a much more bitter beer. 

 

Note: Citra is a very good one for a SMASH recipe.

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4 minutes ago, Fire Rooster said:

Any particular sites that I should visit ?

Would save me lots of time aimlessly wandering on the web.

Thanks

Nothing I would specifically say to go to, no. I am under the belief that “aimlessly wandering” is learning and learning is good. 

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2 hours ago, BDawg62 said:

You can definitely use a different hop the next time.  SMASH recipes are the best way to test what different ingredients do to beer.  By only changing 1 component of the recipe you get a feel for the change that ingredient makes.  If you used 2 row instead of Maris Otter with Cascade you would also end up with a different beer than the one you brewed.  I would use a brew software to calculate your recipe. Brewers friend has a good one that is free.   https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/calculator

 

Different hops have different levels of Alpha Acids that determine bitterness.  Cascade which you used in this batch is typically around 7 % AA where something like Citra is around 12% AA.  Using the same amount of Citra and you did Cascade will result in a much more bitter beer. 

 

Note: Citra is a very good one for a SMASH recipe.

this is intriguing. I have never considered doing a smash. so i guess you would want to stick with a base malt, like 2 row or maris otter? you wouldn't use some of the darker roasted malts that are typically used for flavoring? if I did it, i guess i might try a BIAB 2 gallon recipe with 6 or 7 lbs of base malt and a good hop that i like. i use beersmith, so i could load up a recipe and see what happens.

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3 hours ago, syncman said:

Recently brewed a2 gal all grain BIAB SMASH recipe, using Cascade hops and Maris Otter. Could that same recipe be used with different hops? IE. Can hops be directly "substituted" for a different flavor beer, without adjusting the quantities and addition times? That way I can buy grains in bulk. 6-7 lbs a time at local brew supply costing a fortune.

 

2 Gal, Electric BIAB. Mr beer LBK.

Just brew the exact same beer substituting citra for cascade. Oz for oz. then try amarillo, simcoe, mosaic, el dorado, hull melon, saaz, anything you want. Youre just looking to get a better understanding of that hops flavors. Use it at 60 min, flameout and dry hop. 

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2 hours ago, Creeps McLane said:

Just brew the exact same beer substituting citra for cascade. Oz for oz. then try amarillo, simcoe, mosaic, el dorado, hull melon, saaz, anything you want. Youre just looking to get a better understanding of that hops flavors. Use it at 60 min, flameout and dry hop. 

Creeps, I do agree with using different hops but I can not support the argument that you can just substitute them Oz for Oz in a recipe and get good results.

 

If you do an IPA with this hop schedule with Cascade and Citra you would get very different results regarding IBUs and thus flavor and drinkability.  This is a 2.5 gallon batch.

                         

                             Cascade 5.5%aa     Citra12%aa      Citra

60 Minute              1oz                           1oz                  .5oz

30 Minute              .5oz                         .5oz                 .25oz

5 Minute                .5oz                         .5oz                 .25oz

Flameout               .5oz                         .5oz                 .5oz

Dry Hop                  1oz                          1oz                    1oz

Total IBU               58.5                          127                  63.8

 

The second hop schedule for Citra is much closer and will give you a better understanding of the difference between Citra and Cascade.

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2 hours ago, BDawg62 said:

Creeps, I do agree with using different hops but I can not support the argument that you can just substitute them Oz for Oz in a recipe and get good results.

 

If you do an IPA with this hop schedule with Cascade and Citra you would get very different results regarding IBUs and thus flavor and drinkability.  This is a 2.5 gallon batch.

                         

                             Cascade 5.5%aa     Citra12%aa      Citra

60 Minute              1oz                           1oz                  .5oz

30 Minute              .5oz                         .5oz                 .25oz

5 Minute                .5oz                         .5oz                 .25oz

Flameout               .5oz                         .5oz                 .5oz

Dry Hop                  1oz                          1oz                    1oz

Total IBU               58.5                          127                  63.8

 

The second hop schedule for Citra is much closer and will give you a better understanding of the difference between Citra and Cascade.

I agree with you fully. But one of the most important lessons I learned is how different hops bitter even though they are the same AA. Bitter with an oz of warrior vs cascade. You know what i mean? Then after you understand that hops can have similar stats but completely different results, then maybe go ibu for ibu. Thats my thinking at least

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11 minutes ago, Creeps McLane said:

I agree with you fully. But one of the most important lessons I learned is how different hops bitter even though they are the same AA. Bitter with an oz of warrior vs cascade. You know what i mean? Then after you understand that hops can have similar stats but completely different results, then maybe go ibu for ibu. Thats my thinking at least

Creeps,

 

Two different schools of thought on this one.  My take is probably because I am not a Hop Head.  From your past posts I believe you are.  At 127 IBUs a beer is totally undrinkable to me but probably right in your wheelhouse.

 

Dawg

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46 minutes ago, BDawg62 said:

Creeps,

 

Two different schools of thought on this one.  My take is probably because I am not a Hop Head.  From your past posts I believe you are.  At 127 IBUs a beer is totally undrinkable to me but probably right in your wheelhouse.

 

Dawg

Lol, i dont mean a literal ounce, i just mean the measure of an oz. and not at all those times. One addition at 60, one at flameout and one at dry hop. 

 

But really were saying the same thing, im just complicating it. If i say go oz for oz with the same AA hop, and youre saying go ibu for ibu, isnt that really the same end result? 

 

Im just trying to drive home the fact that bittering with columbus vs citra (off the top of my head those ones i believe are both around 14%?) youll get completely different results. Sorry for complicating this easy experiment 

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19 hours ago, Jdub said:

this is intriguing. I have never considered doing a smash. so i guess you would want to stick with a base malt, like 2 row or maris otter? you wouldn't use some of the darker roasted malts that are typically used for flavoring? if I did it, i guess i might try a BIAB 2 gallon recipe with 6 or 7 lbs of base malt and a good hop that i like. i use beersmith, so i could load up a recipe and see what happens.

 

Generally speaking, darker malts lack the diastatic power to convert to any remaining starches that they have to sugars. The process they go through to become those different types of malts kills that ability. 

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1 hour ago, efdbrian said:

 

Generally speaking, darker malts lack the diastatic power to convert to any remaining starches that they have to sugars. The process they go through to become those different types of malts kills that ability. 

https://blog.eckraus.com/what-is-diastatic-power-definition-chart

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degree_Lintner

http://www.brewingwithbriess.com/Assets/PDFs/Briess_PISB_CBWGoldenLightDME.pdf

 

So if 3 lbs of Golden Light DME (75% fermentability) is used with

4 oz Carapilils (0% diastatic power/degrees Linter), and 4 oz Crystal 60 (0% diastatic power/degrees Linter),

all the fermentability (diastatic power/degrees Linter) is coming from the DME ?

 

 

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1 hour ago, Fire Rooster said:

https://blog.eckraus.com/what-is-diastatic-power-definition-chart

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degree_Lintner

http://www.brewingwithbriess.com/Assets/PDFs/Briess_PISB_CBWGoldenLightDME.pdf

 

So if 3 lbs of Golden Light DME (75% fermentability) is used with

4 oz Carapilils (0% diastatic power/degrees Linter), and 4 oz Crystal 60 (0% diastatic power/degrees Linter),

all the fermentability (diastatic power/degrees Linter) is coming from the DME ?

 

 

 

I don't want to hijack this thread too much, but I'll give you a short answer. I'd be happy to continue any conversation in another thread or PM me. 

 

Malt extracts (DME or LME) don't have any diastatic power. The process to make the extract is basically like brewing an all grain batch, but instead of fermenting the wort they evaporate most of the water. The boiling process denatures the enzymes that convert starches into sugars.

What you have above are what most people would call "steeping malts." When you steep them in hot water, you extract color and flavor, but little (if any) fermentable sugars.

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2 hours ago, efdbrian said:

 

Generally speaking, darker malts lack the diastatic power to convert to any remaining starches that they have to sugars. The process they go through to become those different types of malts kills that ability. 

good to know. thanks!

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On 1/3/2019 at 7:37 AM, efdbrian said:

 

I don't want to hijack this thread too much, but I'll give you a short answer. I'd be happy to continue any conversation in another thread or PM me. 

 

Malt extracts (DME or LME) don't have any diastatic power. The process to make the extract is basically like brewing an all grain batch, but instead of fermenting the wort they evaporate most of the water. The boiling process denatures the enzymes that convert starches into sugars.

What you have above are what most people would call "steeping malts." When you steep them in hot water, you extract color and flavor, but little (if any) fermentable sugars.

Ok, great, thanks.

I need some time to reflect on what just happened :blink:

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I have made a Citra Smash using Maris Otter LME and it turned out great. I have also used Pilsner LME and I think I like it a little better than with the Maris Otter. Citra is one of my favorite hops.

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