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#9 - Belgian Dubbel

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Brewed the MRB Seasonal Dubbel tonight. Easy as pie again. So easy that I made a rookie mistake (which actually reminded me that, yes, I am still a rookie).

Thought I had everything mixed well in the kettle. Used my wort chiller, and poured into the LBK. Set the pot in the sink, and went about topping off with water, taking a hydrometer reading and pitching the yeast.

While the hydrometer was spinning I turned and flipped the faucet on to wash the brew kettle. Back to the hydrometer, and it is 1.056 (temp corrected). Seems a bit low compared to other reports on here. Back to the brew kettle, and the water is brown. Seems that I didn't get it quite mixed up well enough, and there was a layer of HME still on the bottom of the kettle. :angry: To make matters worse, I overfilled the LBK to halfway between the line and the Q (that was on purpose).

So my Dubbel will be a little weak. Hopefully it will still taste good.

Lesson for others, make sure the wort is well mixed, and use a rubber scraper to get everything off the bottom of the brew pot!

Edit: Recipe Link

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Bad news: you left a little condensed beer goodness in the pot.

Good news: you will have beer, glorius homemade, your friends will be envious, delicious beer!

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Sham Addams wrote:

Bad news: you left a little condensed beer goodness in the pot.

Good news: you will have beer, glorius homemade, your friends will be envious, delicious beer!

Yeah, I know. Just a bit disappointed in myself. I was surprised how much was on there, since that hadn't happened to me before. Figured I should post the bad along with the good...

Just goes to show how much extra goodness MRB puts into the seasonals. Was krausening away nicely this morning, so beer is being made.

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...and now I believe it's stuck. SG on 8-20 was 1.022, and 8-30 is 1.021 :angry: Pretty sure the yeast got angry with me, as I dropped the temp too fast early on. Temp was rising pretty quick (76-78) on day 1, so I stuck it in a cooler with 2 ice bottles and about 1/2 inch of water on the bottom. Temp dropped off the end of the brew-o-meter, so took out one of the bottles and it stabilized at 66*.

Left it there for 8 days, and got the 1.022 reading. Moved it out of the cooler and it stabilized at 72-74*. Was there for 10 days, and now at 1.021. Target FG should be 1.014.

So, the question is, what to do? Should I try to get another pack of T-58 and toss it in there? What are my other options?

BTW, this also happened to my Sticky Wicket Oatmeal Stout. Brewed the same day, OG 1.041, SG 1.022, SG 1.021 on the same days as above. So I need to do something with that one too. Guess I won't be bottling either of those this weekend...

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Not sure if T-58 is available locally. If not, would US-05 be a good substitute yeast? Since 05 is a clean finishing yeast I would guess that wouldn't affect the flavor profile very much. Hmmm...

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Maybe you could feed it per mashani's instruction? Rouse it or let it go a
little higher temp?

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Hey Ryan. Since the temp swing was so far and fast, I had a feeling this might happen from what I had read. So I smacked the yeast around at that point (gentle stir, no aeration), and only got another .001 after 10 more days. Not sure if a nutrient will be enough for these boys. Think they may need reinforcements.

I have seen threads here and on other sites that recommended pitching more yeast, but just haven't seen any follow-ups as to if it worked or not. Since yeast can add so much to a brew, I want to make sure I add one that won't conflict with the T-58 if I cant find it.

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I understand. I think Mashani may have some advice even if nobody else jumps in. Good luck!

I haven't even looked at mine yet still just sitting in it's cooler... :barman: :popbeer:

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Not sure I saw the post from mashani that you are referring to. Got a link?

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US-05 is a very clean fermenting yeast, while T-58 is known for peppery/spicy flavors. It may be okay to use some US-05 to finish it off, since the spicy flavor production may be past by now, anyway.

Another thing that might be worth trying would be to get some yeast nutrient, boil it in a small amount of water, let it cool to room temperature and carefully add it to the fermenter. You may want to gently stir with a sanitized spoon or simply rock the fermenter a bit to disturb the yeast that has settled.

I generally add yeast nutrient or yeast energizer to every batch now, but before I did, I had a few batches get stuck and adding some yeast nutrient seemed to wake them up again.

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GWCR:

Before adding Yeast, I'ld try boiling a quarter cup of brown sugar ( or table sugar... ) in a cup or so of water, allow it to cool to your wort temp and pour it in...

I would do the same to your Oatmeal Stout.

If it wakes the yeasties up.... Give them a few days and if the SG isn't low enough, feed 'em again.

If the first feeding doesn't seem to do anything, then some more yeast might be your only other option.

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Thanks for the replies guys. I'll try to find some nutrient today and give that a shot. Hopefully that wakes 'em up!

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GWCR, do not buy yeast nutrient! What you want is the "yeast energizer" - there's a major difference in how they work. If you look at my "stuck fermentation" thread, I boiled a cup of water, tossed in a few tablespoons of sugar and a teaspoon of yeast energizer, cooled, carefully added to the LBK and gave it a gentle stir - end result a thin layer of new krausen in 24 hours. Good luck!

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Thanks for the clarification russki. Will be looking for the yeast energizer shortly...

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No yeast energizer locally for me. The two spots that somewhat pass for a LHBS (couple of 5' shelves in a grocery store), didn't even have any ale yeast. Only a couple packets of lager yeast!

I'm not sure if I have any extra yeast at home. All out of fumunda, and my US-05 is for this w/e brew day. Guess I could try feeding them with the brown sugar solution that BigPapaG suggested...

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So with no yeast or energizer in town, I decided to try to feed the yeast. Boiled 1/2 cup brown sugar in a cup of water, cooled, gently poured in and gently stirred (with a sanitized spoon). Definitely got everything re-suspended, so we'll see if it helps. Will take a sample in a week. If no change, I should have some more yeast by then and will give that a go. Hey, at least I'm learning something new again...

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Big negative on this one too. Only dropped 1 point. Rehydrating some yeast now. Hope this works.

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Yeah, it does kind of suck. But I'm looking at it as a learning experience. If I wouldn't have hosed these up, then I wouldn't have dug deeper into the stalled fermentation info. If this doesn't work, I'll bottle in PETs and lock 'em in a box for a month.

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mashani wrote:

No matter what, its still beer, so it's still good.

I think I may have just experienced my first exception to that rule. Maybe my first contaminated batch. Maybe not, I was drinking Bud Ice (on sale) at the beach, then tried the home brew ... maybe my tastebuds were whacked. I'll try another tonight and judge ... it's the Pilothouse Pisner .... but maybe the spicy overtones in that are getting old with me and I just don't like them. I don't know.


Anyway ... the Dubbel ... yeah, so far the only seasonal I've missed was the hefenweisen whatever ... got balled up and forgot to order, but I've had all the others and loved them, so I'm expecting the Dubbel to be great ... even though it's maltier than hoppier ... I can't remember when it'll be conditioned, my notes are at home. Gonna follow the thread to see how folks like it.

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Tabasco wrote:

mashani wrote:

No matter what, its still beer, so it's still good.

I think I may have just experienced my first exception to that rule. Maybe my first contaminated batch. Maybe not, I was drinking Bud Ice (on sale) at the beach, then tried the home brew ... maybe my tastebuds were whacked. I'll try another tonight and judge ... it's the Pilothouse Pisner .... but maybe the spicy overtones in that are getting old with me and I just don't like them. I don't know.

Pilothouse has weird hops. If I drink one of the "Pilot Belgiques" I brewed with 3 cans of the stuff + T-58 and saaz, and then I try a regular beer, the regular beer doesn't taste right at all at first, as the fruit and spice from the stuff has weirded out my mouth. (and I like this beer quite much, it's just that its kind of unique in the fruit and spice department).

I like Grand Bohemian better as a straight up pils.

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Pitching more yeast seems to have worked. Pulled a sample last night, and it was 1.012 (and still quite tasty). Original target FG was 1.014, so I'm going to bottle 'er up tonight. Glad this "learning experience" is over. Now I'll have a free LBK to brew some more!

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Finally bottled this last night. 22-12oz glass bottles and 1-12oz plastic tester. Batch primed with 48g of corn sugar. Had about 2oz left over for a sample, and it tasted great. Now to wait 4 weeks for the tester...

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I have my taster in the fridge... so, maybe tonight I will post up some thoughts on it.

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Had the tester last night after 4 weeks in the bottle. Very pleasantly surprised. Nice full body, great flavor. I will definitely enjoy drinking this seasonal. Think I'll give it one more week and try again, but don't think I'll let this one sit too long. Well done again MB!

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I opened one up last week, and I thought it was one of the best that I've brewed. Very good taste!

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I just bottled mine this past Tuesday. The sample I had was great. It will be hard to resist the temptation to pop one in the fridge a little early. :gulp:

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Tried mine for the first time on Friday. I'm getting a definite spice flavor on the back-end, but can't identity it. Anyone else getting this?

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Wow - this is a great, very educational thread. Sucks that you had to go through it but excellent that you used it as a learning opportunity. Hopefully I can learn from it as well. I am sure this will happen to me at some point, (well, now that I have a hydrometer and will start taking readings with batches 3 & beyond :).

Fortunately I have a few LHBS within say 5 miles of the house so if I really need something I can run get it and don't have to improvise, but it is good to see what worked and what didn't for you. Now, since it turned out so good after all this, I bet you will REALLY enjoy this batch of beer :)

Cheers
jeff

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Manowarfan1 wrote:

Wow - this is a great, very educational thread. Sucks that you had to go through it but excellent that you used it as a learning opportunity. Hopefully I can learn from it as well. I am sure this will happen to me at some point, (well, now that I have a hydrometer and will start taking readings with batches 3 & beyond :).

Fortunately I have a few LHBS within say 5 miles of the house so if I really need something I can run get it and don't have to improvise, but it is good to see what worked and what didn't for you. Now, since it turned out so good after all this, I bet you will REALLY enjoy this batch of beer :)

Cheers
jeff


Glad my experience on this one can help someone else. I couldn't be happier with how this is turning out.

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BugLaden wrote:

Tried mine for the first time on Friday. I'm getting a definite spice flavor on the back-end, but can't identity it. Anyone else getting this?

Mine, I get subtle pepper (perhaps closer to GOP) and cloves that linger and taste sweeter then normal because of all of the malt, but thaese flavors are pretty typical from the T-58. It's all very mellow, not in your face like a clovey wheat. You are tasting something else too?

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My tester on this one had an up front fizzyness and a spicy malty profile...

That was at four weeks in the bottle...

At six weeks, there is now some banana coming through, which I really wasn't shooting for... Or maybe it's just a fruityness... fizzyness is gone... May have still been fermenting! Although I had it in the LBK for 21 days and the hydrometer reading seemed stable on 19-21 days...

I used the Trappist High Gravity, 1/3 lb Amber Candi Sugar and 1/4 cup Dark Brown Sugar.

It's good though... My son says it fairs well against the Ommegang Abbey Dubbel...

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@BugLaden, I really like T-58 quite much and use it alot. It is good as a pseudo-saison yeast if you can't get the real thing or you can't get the high fermentation temps needed for the real thing. It's good in Wit beer too.

@BigPapaG, Trappist High Gravity produces all sorts of fruit from green apple to pears to candied citrus... which is all there in my patersbiers I've made with it. So I'm not surprised by fruit, although a strong banana flavor would surprise me unless your fermentation temps were very high

I actually like the one I brewed straight up with T-58 better then Ommegang Abbey Dubbel. Yeah I know that sounds wrong, but really I do!

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@mashani

Yeah... that's the thing.. I thnk the temps were reasonable...

Started lower and allowed to rise during fermentation...

The table below shows the day number with a temp (*F) next to it...

Temperatures:

01    - 66.               08 - 68.           15 - 72
02   - 67.              09 -  69.           16 - 72
03   - 69.               10 -  70.            17 - 73
04.  - 68.               11  -  70.             18 - 73
05.  -  67.               12 - 70.             19 - 74
06.  -  68.               13 - 70.            20 - 74
07.   -  68.               14- 70.             21 -  74

OG= 1.067 / FG= 1.014

But remember, I added 1/3 lb Amber Candi Sugar and 1/4 cup Dark Brown Sugar...

So, good attenuation, and shouldn't have been too warm on the fermentation...

Maybe I should have kept it below 70 the whole time...

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@BigPapaG, I don't think you should have gotten much if any banana with that yeast unless you are fermeting at 75-78+ in the first week... that yeasts low end is around 64 degrees, so you really fermented it on the cool to moderate side for the first couple of weeks.

Curious to know when you taste more if you still think it's banana or something else. The fruit esters made by that yeast will change as it ages.

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@mashani. +1

It must, it wasn't there on week four, showed up on week six... Another sampler by the weekend and we will see... Er taste what might have changed... Might not have been banana but it seemed to be, or tropical maybe... I could barely taste the fruitiness, ( but I trashed my palette with an IPA before the Dubble )... It was my son who really was getting banana notes...

Let's see what the next tester brings... In fact, tester schmester... I should just queue some of these up and start drinking them! :woohoo:

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BigPapaG wrote:

@mashani. +1

It must, it wasn't there on week four, showed up on week six... Another sampler by the weekend and we will see... Er taste what might have changed... Might not have been banana but it seemed to be, or tropical maybe... I could barely taste the fruitiness, ( but I trashed my palette with an IPA before the Dubble )... It was my son who really was getting banana notes...

Let's see what the next tester brings... In fact, tester schmester... I should just queue some of these up and start drinking them! :woohoo:

FWIW, Tropical I would understand... when you take the pear and melon and citrus flavors from it and mix them that's kind of the vibe you get. Some of the flavors tone down over time and others come more to the front. But 3787 isn't a yeast you really want to use if you want no fruity flavors.

Anyways, I'm sure I'd like your beer. If you hate it send it to me. LOL

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mashani wrote:

BigPapaG wrote:

@mashani. +1

It must, it wasn't there on week four, showed up on week six... Another sampler by the weekend and we will see... Er taste what might have changed... Might not have been banana but it seemed to be, or tropical maybe... I could barely taste the fruitiness, ( but I trashed my palette with an IPA before the Dubble )... It was my son who really was getting banana notes...

Let's see what the next tester brings... In fact, tester schmester... I should just queue some of these up and start drinking them! :woohoo:

FWIW, Tropical I would understand... when you take the pear and melon and citrus flavors from it and mix them that's kind of the vibe you get. Some of the flavors tone down over time and others come more to the front. But 3787 isn't a yeast you really want to use if you want no fruity flavors.

Anyways, I'm sure I'd like your beer. If you hate it send it to me. LOL

:laugh: If I hate it, I will send you some!

Right now I'm finding its evolution to be quite interesting... And yes, I knew I'd get some fruit just not banana ester... Can't wait to see how it is this week!

Going to a 'bring your own beer' restaurant this weekend... Should be able to get a few more opinions at dinner.

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Popped open a Seasonal Dubbel again tonight...

Put this one in the fridge at noon today and probably should have waited until tomorrow night... But couldn't!

Perfect amount of head, lessens quickly but stays there, thinner, with some lacing for the durarion of the glass.

Spicy notes and fruits are coming out... Very nice... What I thought was banana like esters seem to be other fruity notes from the yeast... Although it still smell a little like banana, or at least that is what I'm getting... But much less pronounced than two weeks ago...

Another month and this is gonna be awesome I believe! It's very good now...

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Sounds great, glad to hear your banana isn't so much. I still have not decided if I'm going to tinker with the yeast in the next batch or stick with the T-58. I like how it came out with T-58 quite a lot.

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I think I will also use the T-58 and drop the brown sugar and add a bit more candi sugar...

I have three more of these so I might get a little crazier with the third one... Maybe a 'Farmhouse' yeast... Just a thought... :P

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BigPapaG wrote:

I think I will also use the T-58 and drop the brown sugar and add a bit more candi sugar...

I have three more of these so I might get a little crazier with the third one... Maybe a 'Farmhouse' yeast... Just a thought... :P

I honestly think a spicy saison yeast and this would work very well together, so go for it!

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I was reading this thread and couldn't help but go grab one of these from the fridge! I am definitely a fan of this beer. I love most Belgians and Dubbels are definitely right in my wheelhouse. I was stoked when I saw this was the seasonal this year and bought 2 instead of 1. I think I should have bought 3 though!

The first, I went straight up. I think I may have fermented on the cool side (though I don't remember what my exact temps were) for this yeast. Not that that's a bad thing, but the spice notes are very mild. Very little fruit. Just a hint of spice, maybe clove but I'm almost getting more of a hit of cinnamon. This is coming up on 2 months in the bottle and I have already stashed a few in the fridge for drinking. I still have plenty in my conditioning closet though.

Unfortunately, I forgot to write down what my FG was for this, but I think my overall ABV was a little bit low. I may have overfilled the LBK. Not a bad thing though. I'm very happy with this beer. One of the best experiences I've had with straight up MB kit so far.

I think the next one I will be adding some Amber Candi Sugar or some such thing and contemplating a small hit of cocoa powder or something funky. Perhaps some cinnamon or other spice for a holiday brew, though I'd have to get that going now and it still probably wouldn't be ready on time. But oh well. Whatever it is, I'm sure it will be tasty with this as a base.

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BigPapaG wrote:

Popped open a Seasonal Dubbel again tonight...

Put this one in the fridge at noon today and probably should have waited until tomorrow night... But couldn't!

Perfect amount of head, lessens quickly but stays there, thinner, with some lacing for the durarion of the glass.

Spicy notes and fruits are coming out... Very nice... What I thought was banana like esters seem to be other fruity notes from the yeast... Although it still smell a little like banana, or at least that is what I'm getting... But much less pronounced than two weeks ago...

Another month and this is gonna be awesome I believe! It's very good now...

Hours in the fridge isn't enough for any beer.

Give it at least 2 days and preferably a week in the fridge.

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