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trumpetman

Cream Ale

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I want to Brew Up the Fathers Day Cream Ale per recipe in a LBK with some additional UME Pale Export to Boost ABV and Body but what about Corn. Does not a Cream Ale use Corn. How can I get to use corn but still do everything else the the MR Beer method so to speak.
Trumpetman

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trumpetman wrote:

Any Idea how much? Should I use a Hop Sack? Will this steeped Flaked corn add to fermentables?

Flaked corn should be mashed. If you steep this it's going to put starch into your wort, which among other things will make it very cloudy, kinda milky looking. Here the list of grains I refer to:

http://www.beersmith.com/grain-list/

It's pretty complete and tells which ones need to be mashed.

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How do I mash it? I have just be brewing with LBK's per recipes adding extra UME Honey a little dry Hopping etc. Thanks
Trumpetman

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k9dude wrote:

trumpetman wrote:

Any Idea how much? Should I use a Hop Sack? Will this steeped Flaked corn add to fermentables?

Flaked corn should be mashed. If you steep this it's going to put starch into your wort, which among other things will make it very cloudy, kinda milky looking. Here the list of grains I refer to:

http://www.beersmith.com/grain-list/

It's pretty complete and tells which ones need to be mashed.


I know flaked corn does not need a cereal mash, so I don't know why it couldn't be used here if the desire is to extract characteristics and not for conversion?

This is a subject that confuses me as I've seen several lists like this and they do not always match. And going through this list I see numerous grains listed as 'must mash' that I've steeped successfully (and/or that I've seen listed in extract recipes from various sources).

If conversion is not the goal, and you're only looking to dial in color/flavor/body/etc from a specialty or adjunct grain, I don't see what's really different between a controlled 30 minute steep or a 60 minute mash.

I've only done three BIAB batches so far, so please excuse my ignorance if I'm way off base here... ;)

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KZ wrote:

k9dude wrote:

trumpetman wrote:

Any Idea how much? Should I use a Hop Sack? Will this steeped Flaked corn add to fermentables?

Flaked corn should be mashed. If you steep this it's going to put starch into your wort, which among other things will make it very cloudy, kinda milky looking. Here the list of grains I refer to:

http://www.beersmith.com/grain-list/

It's pretty complete and tells which ones need to be mashed.


I know flaked corn does not need a cereal mash, so I don't know why it couldn't be used here if the desire is to extract characteristics and not for conversion?

This is a subject that confuses me as I've seen several lists like this and they do not always match. And going through this list I see numerous grains listed as 'must mash' that I've steeped successfully (and/or that I've seen listed in extract recipes from various sources).

If conversion is not the goal, and you're only looking to dial in color/flavor/body/etc from a specialty or adjunct grain, I don't see what's really different between a controlled 30 minute steep or a 60 minute mash.

I've only done three BIAB batches so far, so please excuse my ignorance if I'm way off base here... ;)

They are both similar processes that involve soaking grains in hot water, but different temps are involved. Here's a better explanation than I could give:

http://byo.com/stories/wizard/article/section/121-mr-wizard/1615-what-exactly-is-the-difference-between-mashing-and-steeping-dont-both-procedures-basically-involve-soaking-grain-in-hot-water

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trumpetman wrote:

How do I mash it? I have just be brewing with LBK's per recipes adding extra UME Honey a little dry Hopping etc. Thanks
Trumpetman

Here's Palmer's technique for a partial mash:

http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter18-3.html

There are also many threads here on the forum that discuss partial mashing so you can try looking for those as well. Also check out the link I gave KZ it explains the difference between mashing and steeping.

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A cereal mash is different from a mash. Some unmalted grains need to undergo a process to gelatinize the starches before they are mashed. Flaked grains have been processed a different way to accomplish the same goal.

Here's a page from Palmer's book on using flaked grains. Note that he says flaked corn must be mashed:
http://www.howtobrew.com/section2/chapter12-2.html

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Its possible that there is corn already in the HCCD. While MrB doesn't give out exact details about the amounts of things in their UMEs, they may be willing to give you a yes/no answer if you ask them.

If you haven't used the online chat or spoken to them on the phone, they are VERY good. Just ask to talk to one of the Brewmasters (which may be who you end up talking to anyway).

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If you've never mashed before, you might be a bit intimidated by it, but it's not really that tough.

You need what is known as a base malt. A base malt has enzymes that will convert starches to sugars under the right conditions. Some base malts have enough enzymes to convert their own starches, and some can convert their own as well as other grains.

A good base malt is two row (there are two rows of seeds in the barley head). It can convert itself and also grains without enzymes (or with some enzymes, but not enough to self-convert).

There are some fairly complex ways to mash (starting at a certain temperature, holding there for X minutes, warming to a higher one and holding, etc. The reason for doing that is that different temperatures activate different enzymes, which convert to different sugars (some fermentable and some not). You generally don't want to aim for the highest fermentable sugar conversion because that can leave the beer thin.

There's also a process where you aim for a temperature where you get a good balance between different enzymes and hold it there (or close to it).

I do something like that.

The first couple of times I mashed, I added 170F water to the grains, stirred and stuck it in the oven on low for an hour.

After that, I got a cooler. I warm it up first, then add the grains and hot water, close it up tight and leave it for an hour. If I'm using a fair amount of unmalted grain, I may leave it for 90 minutes.

After the mash is done, you need to drain, then rinse to get the rest of the sugar.

I aim for simplicity and I don't really get the best efficiency, but it works for me.

I crush the grain and put it in a 5 gallon paint strainer bag. Most brew stores will crush the grain for you. After I did it a few times, I knew I'd continue, so I bought a mill. An alternative is to crush them with a rolling pin, but I'm not sure whether you'd get a good enough crush that way. The drawback to buying it precrushed is that it loses flavor (and enzymes) once it has been crushed, so if you don't use it right away, it may not be as good.

I add 1.25 qts of water per lb of grain. I heat it to about 170, then pour it in. That usually results in a temperature of about 150-155. It's important to stir the grist to ensure there are no air pockets. If there is grain that doesn't get wet, it won't convert.

If you're trying to convert the recipe to a partial mash (PM), you could drop the Booster and use the mash to substitute for it.

I generally keep the Booster because I consider it fairly neutral and it ups the ABV. Actually, I'd rather use Booster with more malt rather than with less malt.

If you're trying to stay fairly close to the ABV of the original recipe, but do a PM version, using 2 row and flaked corn, you could do something like this:

1.25 lb of 2 row and .25 lb flaked corn.

The night before, stick a gallon or two of water in the fridge to cool off.

Add 1.875 qts of 70F water (or go with 2 qts since it's easier to measure). Mash for 60-90 minutes at 150-155F oven method or cooler to maintain temperatures). Pour the liquid into a pot (it will be less than the amount you started with because the grains absorb some of the water.

Slowly pour 2-3 qts of 170F water over the grains to rinse them.

If you used a paint strainer bag, you can squeeze it, but there are some who claim that can contribute to astringency.

Add this liquid to the liquid you got earlier.

I think that you need to boil this for an hour even if you're not doing a hop boil.

Once you've boiled for an hour, you can add the HCCD, stir and add to at least a gallon of refrigerated water in the fermenter. From here on, follow the recipe.

It adds about an hour. More in duration, but most of the mash time it's just sitting in the cooler or the oven.

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Mr Beer Help Desk Dianne said since the recipe uses Booster, that would be the Corn ingredient to make a Cream ale style. Thoughts? That's fine with me if there is some truth to that. I am adding UME Pale export for more ABV too to get to 6%
Trumpetman

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trumpetman wrote:

Mr Beer Help Desk Dianne said since the recipe uses Booster, that would be the Corn ingredient to make a Cream ale style. Thoughts? That's fine with me if there is some truth to that. I am adding UME Pale export for more ABV too to get to 6%
Trumpetman

My understanding is that the Mr. Beer Booster contains corn syrup solids... Which are of course derived from corn. For an extract brew, it will function as the corn addition, contributing to both the ABV and some amount of head retention. Just watch the ratio of malt to booster so you don't over do it on the adjunct side of the equation.

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This is from the BJCP style guidelines:

Ingredients: American ingredients most commonly used. A
grain bill of six-row malt, or a combination of six-row and
North American two-row, is common. Adjuncts can include
up to 20% flaked maize in the mash, and up to 20% glucose or
other sugars in the boil. Soft water preferred. Any variety of
hops can be used for bittering and finishing.
Vital Statistics:
OG:
1.042 – 1.055
IBUs: 15 – 20
FG:
1.006 – 1.012
SRM: 2.5 – 5
ABV:
4.2– 5.6%

Both adjunct corn and sugars are optional, but achieving a true cream ale is probably next to impossible without using one or both. In that sense, Dianne is correct; in that it is almost necessary to get the lightening and thinning that the dextrose in the booster provides. This is a good example of the fact that, while MB makes the process very simple and has done all or most of the work for you, in order to duplicate some styles, you almost have to be willing to learn how to mash. There's a heck of a lot you can do with MB's extracts, but imparting certain characteristics like those you get from corn, rice, rye, or other malted barley types can only be achieved the hard way (Briess now makes a very highly regarded rye malt extract, but I haven't tried it). As BPGreen discussed, doing a partial mash is really not complicated--just time consuming. It will certainly give you a sense of accomplishment to make your first partial or fully mashed beer. Mine were utter chaos, with pots and screens and colanders and sticky floors; but the feeling of satisfaction was worth the bother, and of course, you get better at it with practice.

If you do decide to try a partial mash, I would recommend six row as a base, as it has more enzymatic power which will be more likely to avoid problems converting the corn (definitely go with flaked maize for ease of use), although that is a pretty small concern, and it is truer to style.

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trumpetman wrote:

Mr Beer Help Desk Dianne said since the recipe uses Booster, that would be the Corn ingredient to make a Cream ale style. Thoughts? That's fine with me if there is some truth to that. I am adding UME Pale export for more ABV too to get to 6%
Trumpetman

That makes sense to me. Mashing seems like overkill for the small amount involved.

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Sham Addams wrote:

Isn't dextrose corn sugar?


Yes, but since it's purified, you wouldn't have any of the corn character that you would get by mashing the actual corn. I had the sense that it is often made with both corn and sugar as adjuncts.

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Going to stick with my Recipe 1 Canadian Draft 1 Pale Export and the PKG of Booster. 6% which is good. Do the 2-2-2 and it will be "Golden"
30 min total time Thanks fopr the info on Mashing or Partial Mashing
Trumpetman

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trumpetman wrote:

Going to stick with my Recipe 1 Canadian Draft 1 Pale Export and the PKG of Booster. 6% which is good. Do the 2-2-2 and it will be "Golden"
30 min total time Thanks fopr the info on Mashing or Partial Mashing
Trumpetman

I do a Mr Beer batch more or less straight up every once in a while just because it's so easy to get a batch done in 30 minutes instead of the hour+ with extract and hop boil or even longer with the mash.

I'm actually considering doing a 5 gallon batch with mostly Mr Beer ingredients (3 HME, 2 Booster, and 1.5 lbs or so of LME) later this week or maybe this weekend.

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bpgreen wrote:

trumpetman wrote:

Going to stick with my Recipe 1 Canadian Draft 1 Pale Export and the PKG of Booster. 6% which is good. Do the 2-2-2 and it will be "Golden"
30 min total time Thanks fopr the info on Mashing or Partial Mashing
Trumpetman

I do a Mr Beer batch more or less straight up every once in a while just because it's so easy to get a batch done in 30 minutes instead of the hour+ with extract and hop boil or even longer with the mash.

I'm actually considering doing a 5 gallon batch with mostly Mr Beer ingredients (3 HME, 2 Booster, and 1.5 lbs or so of LME) later this week or maybe this weekend.

Tell me about this LME. I use Mr Beer UME

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LME = liquid malt extract = Mr Beer Unhopped malt extract (UME)

DME = dry malt extract can be hopped or unhopped

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trumpetman wrote:

bpgreen wrote:

trumpetman wrote:

Going to stick with my Recipe 1 Canadian Draft 1 Pale Export and the PKG of Booster. 6% which is good. Do the 2-2-2 and it will be "Golden"
30 min total time Thanks fopr the info on Mashing or Partial Mashing
Trumpetman

I do a Mr Beer batch more or less straight up every once in a while just because it's so easy to get a batch done in 30 minutes instead of the hour+ with extract and hop boil or even longer with the mash.

I'm actually considering doing a 5 gallon batch with mostly Mr Beer ingredients (3 HME, 2 Booster, and 1.5 lbs or so of LME) later this week or maybe this weekend.

Tell me about this LME. I use Mr Beer UME

LME is Liquid Malt Extract. It's usually unhopped, so it's more or less the same thing as UME. It can be hopped, but if it is, it's usually called hopped LME instead of HME.

I buy it in bulk at my LHBS. They basically only carry light LME in bulk and recommend that you buy steeping malts if you want something darker. I think they sell if for $2.15/lb for smaller quantities, but I make infrequent trips there, so I buy large quantities. If you buy at least 36 lbs, the price drops to $1.80/lb. I bring a 5 gallon container and have them put in anywhere from 3-4 gallons (3 gallons is 36 lbs). When I get home, I pour it into smaller containers (usually about 6 lbs to a container).

I also buy Maltose from the Asian food store (LAFS). It comes in 500 gram containers for $1.95. It's a hair cheaper than the bulk LME from the LHBS, but it's not really made for beer, so I treat it as more of an adjunct. The LAFS is a lot closer than the LHBS, so I get there more often.

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Brian1179 wrote:

LME = liquid malt extract = Mr Beer Unhopped malt extract (UME)

DME = dry malt extract can be hopped or unhopped

I was going to correct you and say that DME isn't hopped, but when I googled it to find a link explaining why DME can't be hopped, I discovered that Munton's sells hopped DME. However, I think it's very lightly hopped and is just hopped enough to counter the sweetness that remains compared with sugar, so it seems to be targeted as a replacement for things like sugar and Booster.

How to Brew says DME can't be hopped because the hop compound would be lost during the dehydration. That's where I remembered reading it.

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bpgreen wrote:
I was going to correct you and say that DME isn't hopped, but when I googled it to find a link explaining why DME can't be hopped, I discovered that Munton's sells hopped DME. However, I think it's very lightly hopped and is just hopped enough to counter the sweetness that remains compared with sugar, so it seems to be targeted as a replacement for things like sugar and Booster.

How to Brew says DME can't be hopped because the hop compound would be lost during the dehydration. That's where I remembered reading it.

true. However, at my LHBS, they sell hopped DME all the time. i dont use it i like unhopped LME better. i can control the hopping with what i like

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From what I understand, the Mr. Beer extracts are a combination of ingredients designed to create a flavor profile, also. You'd need to diddle around with a number of "purer" extracts to clone a can of Creamy Brown UME, for instance.

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FedoraDave wrote:

From what I understand, the Mr. Beer extracts are a combination of ingredients designed to create a flavor profile, also. You'd need to diddle around with a number of "purer" extracts to clone a can of Creamy Brown UME, for instance.

I thought the Pale and Amber were same as LME and the Wheat and the Brown were blended?

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FedoraDave wrote:

From what I understand, the Mr. Beer extracts are a combination of ingredients designed to create a flavor profile, also. You'd need to diddle around with a number of "purer" extracts to clone a can of Creamy Brown UME, for instance.

+1. Not just your garden variety LME...

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Trollby wrote:

FedoraDave wrote:

From what I understand, the Mr. Beer extracts are a combination of ingredients designed to create a flavor profile, also. You'd need to diddle around with a number of "purer" extracts to clone a can of Creamy Brown UME, for instance.

I thought the Pale and Amber were same as LME and the Wheat and the Brown were blended?

They are all blended AFAIK, they are "more sophisticated" then your regular bulk LMEs.

The Pale is like a Pils 2-row based LME except it has some crystal and vienna in it instead of just something like carapils which is what you find in most Pils LMEs.

The Amber has Munich and Vienna and Crystal in it along with normal 2-row, and some other stuff too I think. Regular light LME is typically just 2-row and carapils.

If you make a beer with 3 cans of Amber as a basis and compare it with a batch made with just 3.5# of Briess light LME, you will get a better overall malt profile with the Amber IMHO. The Briess is possibly better if you want to start from more of a "blank slate" and are going to steep your own grains as you can adjust it exactly as you like.

I dig the patersbier I made with Mr. Beer pale more then the one I made with just Briess Pils. It was more expensive, but it tastes that way too.

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Nice to know!

Now Mr. Beer needs to offer the UME in seasonal size cans (3#) as well as the 1.21# size. (Hint Hint Diane)

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