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mashani

Bière de Garde (Partial Mash) - Two Ways

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This is a 4.3 gallon partial mash partial volume boil batch split across 2 LBKs.

Things that are crossed out are what it was supposed to be... things that are next to them are what it actually ended up being (see screw up discussion below).

2.0# 4# Munich
1.0# Vienna
5# 4.5# of Pils LME, 10 minutes before the end of the boil.
8oz 6oz Aromatic Malt
6oz Honey Malt (closest thing to Brumalt I can get)
6oz Crystal 60L
6oz Special B

1.5oz Styrian Bobek (formerly know as Styrial Goldings) @60
0.5oz Styrian Bobek @20

Two different yeasts just because I can since I have 2 LBKs and this will make it more fun.

Yeast for LBK #1: Wyeast Kölsch (2565)
Yeast for LBK #2: Safelager S-23

Mash the grains together for 60 minutes at around 147, as I want the mash to be very fermentable since I'm adding extract at the end and want this to finish below 1.016.

Boil, add hops, pils at end. Cool, split between LBKs, top up (in the LBKs) with cold water to bring to 8.5 line on each LBK. I did not overfill at all, the Kolsh yeast is sure to make a huge mess if I did that. Maybe not with the S-23, but I didn't want to change the gravity just the yeast. I'm managing to keep my ambient temps at 56 right now. Those low temps won't last once my wife gets back into town, it will go into steam beer territory then, but that's OK for this beer.

My hops were very low AA, this will end up around 30IBUs.

This is what really happened due to various screw ups:

First I found that my Vienna was bug eaten. So I ended up tossing it. My Munich was fine, so I decided to use an extra pound of Munich to replace the Vienna. Due to the extra munichy goodness, I reduced the Aromatic malt to 6oz.

So I thought.

My mash seemed awefully thick. So then I started wondering... looked in my grain box to see what was in there still, and realized that somehow I measured out 4# of munich not 3. (brain fart when looking at recipe and subbing munich for vienna I guess). Also, my mash temps got down to 144 at a couple of points and my mash didn't fully convert for 75 minutes. I'm guessing due to the low temps. But I wasn't going to pull it until the starch test said go.

OG ended up at 1.073, I got very good conversion apparently.

But with my low mash temps I still see this going below 1.016, which is where I want it.

The good thing is I love munich malt, so screw up or not I'm sure I'm going to like this.

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This Wyeast Private Collection Yeast is available through end of December 2011...


Wyeast 3726-PC Farmhouse Ale Yeast
Beer Styles: Saison, Biere de Garde, Belgian Blonde Ale, Belgian Pale Ale, Belgian Golden Strong Ale
Profile: This strain produces complex esters balanced with earthy/spicy notes. Slightly tart and dry with a peppery finish. A perfect strain for farmhouse ales and saisons.
Alc. Tolerance 12% ABV  
Flocculation     medium
Attenuation      74-79%              
Temp. Range   70-84°F (21-29°C)
 
An addition of Crystal 60 would throw it over the top! ( and into Brown territory!)

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Mashani~

FYI...here's the BJCP on the thing...hope it helps any:

16D. Bière de Garde

Aroma: Prominent malty sweetness, often with a complex, light to moderate toasty character. Some caramelization is acceptable. Low to moderate esters. Little to no hop aroma (may be a bit spicy or herbal). Commercial versions will often have a musty, woodsy, cellar-like character that is difficult to achieve in homebrew. Paler versions will still be malty but will lack richer, deeper aromatics and may have a bit more hops. No diacetyl.

Appearance: Three main variations exist (blond, amber and brown), so color can range from golden blonde to reddish-bronze to chestnut brown. Clarity is good to poor, although haze is not unexpected in this type of often unfiltered beer. Well-formed head, generally white to off-white (varies by beer color), supported by high carbonation.

Flavor: Medium to high malt flavor often with a toasty, toffee-like or caramel sweetness. Malt flavors and complexity tend to increase as beer color darkens. Low to moderate esters and alcohol flavors. Medium-low hop bitterness provides some support, but the balance is always tilted toward the malt. The malt flavor lasts into the finish but the finish is medium-dry to dry, never cloying. Alcohol can provide some additional dryness in the finish. Low to no hop flavor, although paler versions can have slightly higher levels of herbal or spicy hop flavor (which can also come from the yeast). Smooth, well-lagered character. No diacetyl.

Mouthfeel: Medium to medium-light (lean) body, often with a smooth, silky character. Moderate to high carbonation. Moderate alcohol, but should be very smooth and never hot.
Overall Impression: A fairly strong, malt-accentuated, lagered artisanal farmhouse beer.

History: Name literally means “beer which has been kept or lagered.” A traditional artisanal farmhouse ale from Northern France brewed in early spring and kept in cold cellars for consumption in warmer weather. It is now brewed year-round. Related to the Belgian Saison style, the main difference is that the Bière de Garde is rounder, richer, sweeter, malt-focused, often has a “cellar” character, and lacks the spicing and tartness of a Saison.

Comments: Three main variations are included in the style: the brown (brune), the blond (blonde), and the amber (ambrée). The darker versions will have more malt character, while the paler versions can have more hops (but still are malt-focused beers). A related style is Bière de Mars, which is brewed in March (Mars) for present use and will not age as well. Attenuation rates are in the 80-85% range. Some fuller-bodied examples exist, but these are somewhat rare.

Ingredients: The “cellar” character in commercial examples is unlikely to be duplicated in homebrews as it comes from indigenous yeasts and molds. Commercial versions often have a “corked”, dry, astringent character that is often incorrectly identified as “cellar-like.” Homebrews therefore are usually cleaner. Base malts vary by beer color, but usually include pale, Vienna and Munich types. Kettle caramelization tends to be used more than crystal malts, when present. Darker versions will have richer malt complexity and sweetness from crystal-type malts. Sugar may be used to add flavor and aid in the dry finish. Lager or ale yeast fermented at cool ale temperatures, followed by long cold conditioning (4-6 weeks for commercial operations). Soft water. Floral, herbal or spicy continental hops.

Vital Statistics: OG: 1.060 – 1.080
IBUs: 18 – 28 FG: 1.008 – 1.016
SRM: 6 – 19 ABV: 6 – 8.5%

Commercial Examples: Jenlain (amber), Jenlain Bière de Printemps (blond), St. Amand (brown), Ch’Ti Brun (brown), Ch’Ti Blond (blond), La Choulette (all 3 versions), La Choulette Bière des Sans Culottes (blond), Saint Sylvestre 3 Monts (blond), Biere Nouvelle (brown), Castelain (blond), Jade (amber), Brasseurs Bière de Garde (amber), Southampton Bière de Garde (amber), Lost Abbey Avante Garde (blond)

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@Christ872, am familiar with the style. This beer is pushing the edge of the "brown" side of the style.

So, as BigPapaG said, Crystal 60 would throw it over the top, and make it too dark for style. But it would be mighty tasty hmmm. gh I could probably sub out some Crystal 60 for some of the Special B, or replace some of the honey malt with it. That would be yummy. The more complex the malt profile the better in this beer as long as they all play nicely together.

@BigPapaG, I'd seriously consider using a Saison yeast if I could keep it warm enough. But this is getting into the wrong time of year for me to make Saison yeasts happy, I think I'd end up with a stuck fermentation. My basement in the winter is a touch too warm for true lager yeasts, not warm enough for saison yeasts. But just right for cool fermenting ale yeasts (or warm fermenting lager yeasts).

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mashani wrote:

@Christ872, am familiar with the style. This beer is pushing the edge of the "brown" side of the style.

So, as BigPapaG said, Crystal 60 would throw it over the top, and make it too dark for style. But it would be mighty tasty hmmm. gh I could probably sub out some Crystal 60 for some of the Special B, or replace some of the honey malt with it. That would be yummy. The more complex the malt profile the better in this beer as long as they all play nicely together.

@BigPapaG, I'd seriously consider using a Saison yeast if I could keep it warm enough. But this is getting into the wrong time of year for me to make Saison yeasts happy, I think I'd end up with a stuck fermentation. My basement in the winter is a touch too warm for true lager yeasts, not warm enough for saison yeasts. But just right for cool fermenting ale yeasts (or warm fermenting lager yeasts).

Yeah, I wouln't just add the Crystal 60 without removing some of the Special B...

For temps, a heating pad on low works well... As does rotating hot water bottles in and out.

If you can maintain 70-72 you are home free.

I think I would like to collaborate on this one with you...since we both like Belgians so much...

I will need to see when I can free up some space... Before the end of December I should think...

If you're game?

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Hmm very interesting. I've never seen a biere de garde recipe not use specialty farmhouse style or specifically biere de garde yeast.

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SenorPepe wrote:

Hmm very interesting. I've never seen a biere de garde recipe not use specialty farmhouse style or specifically biere de garde yeast.

Historically, anything from a German lager or ale strain to a Belgian strains is correct. This is possibly the only truely French beer style. Those places that had more German influence would likely have used a more German strain. Those that had more Belgian influence would have used the more Belgian/Saison strains. Or back before then, whatever the local wild ones were, which still would have pegged it as more "German" or more "Belgian" as such.

It is common for Biere de Garde kit brews from the big online brewing stores to come with or recommend a german ale or lager yeast, and in the case of lager yeast to suggest you ferment it on the warm side so it's not perfectly clean. 2112 is derived from a german lager yeast that happens to not get nasty when fermented warm, so it should be a good choice.

I think Wyeast recommends anything from German lager and ale yeast to Trappist/Abbey strains or Saison yeasts. All will work it just depends on what you are going for. If I was brewing a less complexly malty (IE a blonde version) I'd probably drift towards the more Belgian strains, but with all these malts I'm leaning towards the German ale/lager strains to let the malt shine a bit more.

Regardless, it's really not possible to make a totally authentic biere de garde without having a dank musty cellar in France where it can get touched by the right kind of local flora and fauna and take on some flavors due to them while it ages along with the blue cheese and what not. This is why letting it sit on the yeast cake for a longer time helps at home, it can give it some subtle funky flavors that in an American style would not be necessarily wanted, but in this style is considered just dandy.

When using the German ale/lager yeasts, if you don't want them you can just pull it off the yeast cake and bottle it sooner and you will still have lovely malty beer. Or you can let it sit on the cake and taste little samples and pull it when it tastes as you like. EDIT: This makes this style of yeast a good choice for people who don't like Belgians but like big malty brew, and then later they can "evolve" into the realm of really funky beer.

I may pull each batch at different times, depends on if I like the taste when it's done, or if I think a little bit of funkyness will make it better / more interesting. But I'm not planning on letting this get very funky, I do want the malt to be the bad boy here.

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BigPapaG wrote:

mashani wrote:

@Christ872, am familiar with the style. This beer is pushing the edge of the "brown" side of the style.

So, as BigPapaG said, Crystal 60 would throw it over the top, and make it too dark for style. But it would be mighty tasty hmmm. gh I could probably sub out some Crystal 60 for some of the Special B, or replace some of the honey malt with it. That would be yummy. The more complex the malt profile the better in this beer as long as they all play nicely together.

@BigPapaG, I'd seriously consider using a Saison yeast if I could keep it warm enough. But this is getting into the wrong time of year for me to make Saison yeasts happy, I think I'd end up with a stuck fermentation. My basement in the winter is a touch too warm for true lager yeasts, not warm enough for saison yeasts. But just right for cool fermenting ale yeasts (or warm fermenting lager yeasts).

Yeah, I wouln't just add the Crystal 60 without removing some of the Special B...

For temps, a heating pad on low works well... As does rotating hot water bottles in and out.

If you can maintain 70-72 you are home free.

I think I would like to collaborate on this one with you...since we both like Belgians so much...

I will need to see when I can free up some space... Before the end of December I should think...

If you're game?

I'd be brewing this late December or early January, so that works.

Toss any recipe tweakage at me, I think the 60L in place of some Special B will work nicely, just need to figure out proportions. I'm not set in stone on the Munich vs. Vienna vs. Aromatic vs. Honey malt proportions either, if you think tweaks might improve it, toss 'em my way. Only thing is that I do want to keep this on the darker/stronger side of this style with a lot of malt complexity.

I think I want to stick with styrian goldings, as like fuggles they will add some earthy notes, and that will help make it taste more like it should since I don't have a funky French root cellar handy.

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mashani wrote:

SenorPepe wrote:

Hmm very interesting. I've never seen a biere de garde recipe not use specialty farmhouse style or specifically biere de garde yeast.

Historically, anything from a German lager or ale strain to a Belgian strains is correct. This is possibly the only truely French beer style. Those places that had more German influence would likely have used a more German strain. Those that had more Belgian influence would have used the more Belgian/Saison strains. Or back before then, whatever the local wild ones were, which still would have pegged it as more "German" or more "Belgian" as such.

It is common for Biere de Garde kit brews from the big online brewing stores to come with or recommend a german ale or lager yeast, and in the case of lager yeast to suggest you ferment it on the warm side so it's not perfectly clean. 2112 is derived from a german lager yeast that happens to not get nasty when fermented warm, so it should be a good choice.

I think Wyeast recommends anything from German lager and ale yeast to Trappist/Abbey strains or Saison yeasts. All will work it just depends on what you are going for. If I was brewing a less complexly malty (IE a blonde version) I'd probably drift towards the more Belgian strains, but with all these malts I'm leaning towards the German ale/lager strains to let the malt shine a bit more.

Regardless, it's really not possible to make a totally authentic biere de garde without having a dank musty cellar in France where it can get touched by the right kind of local flora and fauna and take on some flavors due to them while it ages along with the blue cheese and what not. This is why letting it sit on the yeast cake for a longer time helps at home, it can give it some subtle funky flavors that in an American style would not be necessarily wanted, but in this style is considered just dandy.

When using the German ale/lager yeasts, if you don't want them you can just pull it off the yeast cake and bottle it sooner and you will still have lovely malty beer. Or you can let it sit on the cake and taste little samples and pull it when it tastes as you like. EDIT: This makes this style of yeast a good choice for people who don't like Belgians but like big malty brew, and then later they can "evolve" into the realm of really funky beer.

I may pull each batch at different times, depends on if I like the taste when it's done, or if I think a little bit of funkyness will make it better / more interesting. But I'm not planning on letting this get very funky, I do want the malt to be the bad boy here.

Sweet. Thoroughly informative, as usual. I haven't seen recipes call for lager strains. But then again I haven't looked at many, so that doesn't mean much!

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Austin Home Brew and Norther Brewer are both selling their kits with lager yeasts and telling you to ferment warm like a steam beer. Others will tell you to do that or use a clean german ale yeast.

Fermenting it cold and clean is a totally valid option as well (some brewing books tell you to brew it as a clean lager when giving recipes for this style). Others would say it should be slightly funky, but not like super Belgian sour horse sweat kind of funky, more like it just kind of like it sat in a root cellar all winter and spring in a cask funky (earthy, corkey, woody, whatever you want to call it). That is also a perfectly valid opinion and probably more accurate when talking about real farmhouse versions vs. commercial versions. There are commercial examples of each kind described.

So there is a pretty broad brush here, as long as it's malt forward, somewhat strong, and not really hoppy. So this is a beer you can tweak to your liking pretty easily (as long as you like strong and malty).

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mashani wrote:

Austin Home Brew and Norther Brewer are both selling their kits with lager yeasts and telling you to ferment warm like a steam beer. Others will tell you to do that or use a clean german ale yeast.

Fermenting it cold and clean is a totally valid option as well (some brewing books tell you to brew it as a clean lager when giving recipes for this style). Others would say it should be slightly funky, but not like super Belgian sour horse sweat kind of funky, more like it just kind of like it sat in a root cellar all winter and spring in a cask funky (earthy, corkey, woody, whatever you want to call it). That is also a perfectly valid opinion and probably more accurate when talking about real farmhouse versions vs. commercial versions. There are commercial examples of each kind described.

So there is a pretty broad brush here, as long as it's malt forward, somewhat strong, and not really hoppy. So this is a beer you can tweak to your liking pretty easily (as long as you like strong and malty).

It should have a dryness to it as well, without losing the malt sweetness...

A bit of sugar could help achieve that...

Zainasheff and Palmer suggest (in: Brewing Classic Styles) an (English) EDIT: correction, should read European Ale Yeast like WLP001 or Wyeast 1338 at cool temps, or a lager yeast at ale temps as you have previously stated.

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One of the reasons I want to do a PM here vs. using something like Munich extract is so I can mash it low (I will be doing it BIAB style) and make it more fermentable. But I'm not opposed to adding dextrose, just don't want to push the recipe over 1.08, so would sub it for small amounts of other things if used. Might be a good idea, especially if using 2112, which isn't going to attenuate as much as the Kolsh yeast.

In brewing classic styles, I have no clue why they suggest you use 1338. I don't know if you ever used 1338, but attenuates kind of low and ferments slow and often sticks a point or two before it's really done and stays there for weeks or months, then wakes up and say "hay, I'm still hungry" and eats a bit more sugar for no particular reason. In a beer this big I'm afraid it will sit at some place for a month and look "done" and then wake up and decide to ferment many months down the road, and start exploding just when you are getting ready to crack one open. That's why I decided on the Kolsh yeast for the ale version. I'd consider Wyeast 1007 in it's place, I think that would work well too.

WLP001 always makes good beer, but I'd not call it "english". If what you want is clean it would be nice, although IMHO you may as well just pitch a bunch of Nottingham or S05 at that point. But I think for this I'd personally prefer the lager yeast at warm temps route, to get some more interesting flavors into the beer.

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mashani wrote:

One of the reasons I want to do a PM here vs. using something like Munich extract is so I can mash it low (I will be doing it BIAB style) and make it more fermentable. But I'm not opposed to adding dextrose, just don't want to push the recipe over 1.08, so would sub it for small amounts of other things if used. Might be a good idea, especially if using 2112, which isn't going to attenuate as much as the Kolsh yeast.

In brewing classic styles, I have no clue why they suggest you use 1338. I don't know if you ever used 1338, but attenuates kind of low and ferments slow and often sticks a point or two before it's really done and stays there for weeks or months, then wakes up and say "hay, I'm still hungry" and eats a bit more sugar for no particular reason. In a beer this big I'm afraid it will sit at some place for a month and look "done" and then wake up and decide to ferment many months down the road, and start exploding just when you are getting ready to crack one open. That's why I decided on the Kolsh yeast for the ale version. I'd consider Wyeast 1007 in it's place, I think that would work well too.

WLP001 always makes good beer, but I'd not call it "english". If what you want is clean it would be nice, although IMHO you may as well just pitch a bunch of Nottingham or S05 at that point. But I think for this I'd personally prefer the lager yeast at warm temps route, to get some more interesting flavors into the beer.

Doh! wrote "English" instead of "European"

Never used 1338... Just mentioned what I read...

BTW: Add means sub out from something else to keep the balance right... I think adjust but say add... Go figure!

I was thinking maybe candi sugar or even cane sugar...

The Kolsh yeast is a good choice...

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I have found that I prefer to just use dextrose vs CLEAR candi or table sugar, as sugar induced flavors condition out faster. Although for a beer that will condition this long it doens't matter at all.

Now if we are talking amber or dark candi then it's different, but not sure I'd put those things in this beer. Dems for dubbel!

If swapping some 60L for Special B, then I think we could probably take out a little bit of the honey malt which is likely on the high end anyways, and some of the pils, and replace with the sugar. That would dry it out, but there would still be plently of malt sweetness and goodness?

Thoughts?

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mashani wrote:

I have found that I prefer to just use dextrose vs CLEAR candi or table sugar, as sugar induced flavors condition out faster. Although for a beer that will condition this long it doens't matter at all.

Now if we are talking amber or dark candi then it's different, but not sure I'd put those things in this beer. Dems for dubbel!

If swapping some 60L for Special B, then I think we could probably take out a little bit of the honey malt which is likely on the high end anyways, and some of the pils, and replace with the sugar. That would dry it out, but there would still be plently of malt sweetness and goodness?

Thoughts?

Just wanted to look at it in Brew Calculus to get a feel for how it's shaping up.

http://hopville.com/recipe/1031892/bire-de-garde-recipes/biere-de-garde-collaboration-brew

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What's the CaraRed gaining us here? With the Munich and the Aromatic malt it's not needed for color, and it's sweetness is certainly not needed with the other crystal malts and honey malt. I don't think I want to take out that much Special B just to add it, I think the Special B will add far more to the beer the CaraRed. I'd go for 6oz Special B instead of 8, but don't think I want to go lower then that.

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mashani wrote:

What's the CaraRed gaining us here? With the Munich and the Aromatic malt it's not needed for color, and it's sweetness is certainly not needed with the other crystal malts and honey malt. I don't think I want to take out that much Special B just to add it, I think the Special B will add far more to the beer the CaraRed. I'd go for 6oz Special B instead of 8, but don't think I want to go lower then that.

Darn... I was gonna split what I have and ship you half! ;)

Just trying to use it up... 6 oz Special B it is then...

Looks like the dog is getting some CaraRed Biskies... :huh:

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Noticed you targeted recipe @5 gallons, using 2-row and extra extract to get OG up. So FYI, since I'm doing 2 LBKs, one of them with top feremnting yeast that will blow out if I overfill, I'll be doing it as 4.3, so I'll be adjusting amounts of everything slightly to make it work more or less the same when I brew.

Also I think I'm going to use either Bohemian Lager or S23 instead of the 2112 in the second LBK to get more attenuation. Decided 2112 is not going to ferment out dry enough for my liking, sugar or not with the 60L being tossed into the mix.

I ordered a second pack of Kolsh yeast. I will make an actual Kolsh of some sort with it. I haven't made one of those in a while, will keep my pipeline diverse!

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I had a crazy thought of trying out first wort hopping with this since I have a mash to do it in. Anyone done this in a partial mash before?

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mashani wrote:

Noticed you targeted recipe @5 gallons, using 2-row and extra extract to get OG up. So FYI, since I'm doing 2 LBKs, one of them with top feremnting yeast that will blow out if I overfill, I'll be doing it as 4.3, so I'll be adjusting amounts of everything slightly to make it work more or less the same when I brew.

Cool, yeah it defaults to 5 gallons... Added the two row to insure conversion... The extra extract is just because they come 3.3 lbs ea. (actually should have added more but I'm a lousy scraper...)

Also I think I'm going to use either Bohemian Lager or S23 instead of the 2112 in the second LBK to get more attenuation. Decided 2112 is not going to ferment out dry enough for my liking, sugar or not with the 60L being tossed into the mix.

I ordered a second pack of Kolsh yeast. I will make an actual Kolsh of some sort with it. I haven't made one of those in a while, will keep my pipeline diverse!

Not sure If I can sustain lager temps but I can hold 66-68*F...

We should have a phone call...

If you PM me your number I'll be happy to call you. i can send you mine as well.

==> EDIT: Better yet, can you Skype?

Almost went to the LHBS and grabbed the inventory today... But decided to wait so the grains would be fresher...

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Remember I'm doing in 2 LBKs, one with Kolsh, and in the one with the lager yeast I'm doing it steam style closer to 62-64 degrees. Bohemian and S-23 should both be fine at those temps with that in mind.

The Munich can self convert, and the Vienna has more then twice as many enzymes then it needs to convert - enough extra to convert everything else this recipe. No need for 2 row for that reason. I've used just Vienna, with no 2-row or pislner at all, as the base malt for a Marzen/Octoberfest with good results.

I'll try to get skype working, it was trashed last time I tried due to firewall or ISP.

EDIT: I updated first post with my current version of the recipe and the explanation re: the Vienna. I used dextrose and lowered the Pils qty to 5#. I lowered the honey malt and the crystal malts to 6oz vs. 8. I think 8oz of each was going to be overboard with the 60L addition.

This is going to put it right around 1.076 or so @4.3 gallons, which is right around where I want it.

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I brewed this, with various trials, tribulations, and mishaps of mystery. I edited the first post to reflect my intended recipe and what actually got brewed.

The good news is that it's going to be beer! It sure looked and tasted like malty goodness (this is just the mash getting boiling with my lovely hops).

beer-20111228.jpg

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I just got done reading the book Farmhouse Ales by Phil Malinowski. An excellent reference for this style Bière de Garde & Saisons. The general feel I got for this beer is that pretty anything goes and it is aged.

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It's a pretty wide open style, just needs to be strong and malt forward, yet slightly dry for the amount of malt it has. There are light versions that are almost like maibock, and darker versions more like this one. They can be funky like a belgian or not funky at all, it's a matter of taste (and modernity). Especially the light colored versions are typically not funky as they are more modern and were competing with the new fangled pislner and belgian strong golden ales.

I'm leaving this in my fermenters for 4 or maybe even 5 weeks, then bottling it and after it carbs storing it in a cool place until May or June before I even think about opening one, unless I end up with partial trub bottle.

I intentionally decided on the styrians, as they have that fuggley earthy quality, and that's something that will make this beer seem more like something that aged in a cellar along with the cheese, since I can't really do that.

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can you move the beer off the yeast cake after 3 weeks? No sense picking up flavors from there. If I understood the book right the is the Flemish version of a lager. Ale done a the low range to get a clean dry malt flavor & finish

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I'm not too worried about 4 weeks on the cake making it nasty.

The reality is that for the darker/funkier versions it's not uncommon to leave it on the yeast cake for even up to 6 weeks to get a bit of yeasty flavor and aroma into it. Or you can pull it off if you want it totally clean.

Some versions are even aged in wood infected with Brett. I'm not doing that. At least not on purpose LOL. EDIT: Look for something called "Bier de Mars" if you want to ever try a brett infected Bier de Garde.

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Ok, went to the LHBS today and wow, they were wiped out!

Couldn't get what I wanted to do this as a BIAB...

So, re-grouping on my end of the collaboration and going to do a take on this with extracts and steeping grains.

Extracts: Pilsen DME and Munich LME

Steeping Grains: CaraAroma, Crystal 60, CaraVienna, Special B, CaraPils (maybe)

Hops: Styrian Goldings

Yeast:

Ok, choices here... i was able to get Wyeast 1388 Belgian Strong Ale and also lucked out and found a Wyeast Private Collection Strain... 3655 Belgian Schelde!

Think I may use the 3655 as it is an East Flanders strain and might give this some of the funkiness that would be called for, without pushing it to the Biere de Mars territory.

Hoping for Malty but dry, tart but not sour, and earthy/woody from the Styrians...

Haven't thrown this into Beer Calculus yet... Stay tuned...

:)

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Bummer that neither of us managed to brew it as intended, but hey, it's going to be beer!

I've never used 3655, that could be interesting, but I have no idea what to expect. It sounds like "saison yeast meets chimay yeast" from the descriptions.

1388 - if you use it be careful, as in my experience it can seem "done" at 3-4 weeks but still ferment another point or two over a period of months. You might want to prime on the low side if you use it, especially since this beer will be socked away for 3 months+ before opening it. Better lower carbed beer then bottle bombs?

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Yup... i used the 1388 for my 11-11-11 Golden Strong Ale (OG 1.11 / Expected FG 1.028) and it never got down below 1.050, even after 5 weeks... So, I bottled it shooting for 2.5 vCO2, boxed and wrapped them and tucked them into the cellar for a long, slow carb / conditioning period. I figure I'm gonna lose at least half the case but oh well!)

Anyway, I think the 3655 was a good find and should provide an interesting funkiness...

I'll be cellaring most away for summer... Maybe we can swap if you're up this way.

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I'd be staring at that Strong Golden with an evil eye... it might go :evil: on you.

Did you feed it the sugar or do it all up front? It should not have stuck that high... that's more then a few points LOL.

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Fed it twice... But I screwed up... It stuck after primary, and didn't really do anything with feeding #1...

It was down to 1.038 after primary, right around the usual stick gravity for that yeast...

So, I gave it a week, and fed it again... All that did was up the gravity...

With both feedings, it was up to 1.060 again, and only came down to 1.050

Was going to pitch some more 1388 but couldn't get any... In hindsight, probably should have just hit it with some US-05 to get it moving cleanly...

Oh well, live and learn... I expect about 8% ABV and sweet if any of it survives!

:woohoo:

EDIT: Hmmm... Starting to wonder if I should open them and re-cap them just to release the excess pressure... I'm pretty sure it will make more CO2 if I do it soon (it's two weeks in the bottles now...)

Thoughts?

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I'd probably have gone and gotten some Trappist High Gravity, or pitched a bunch of Notty or S05 to kick it into gear.

It would probably be worth popping open 1 of them just to see what's going on with carbonation.

At that gravity it's probably going to be tasty over vanilla ice cream like my maple wine used to be LOL.

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mashani wrote:

I'd probably have gone and gotten some Trappist High Gravity, or pitched a bunch of Notty or S05 to kick it into gear.

It would probably be worth popping open 1 of them just to see what's going on with carbonation.

At that gravity it's probably going to be tasty over vanilla ice cream like my maple wine used to be LOL.

yeah... I'm thinking of reducing a bottle down by 50%-75% or so and trying it over...

Wait for it...

Belgian Waffles!

:silly:

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Well, I finally got around to getting this one done.

The recipe ended up being Extract plus Steeping Grains w/ Hop Boil and is posted here:

http://hopville.com/recipe/1089847/bire-de-garde-recipes/biere-de-garde-collaboration-brew-bigpapags-version

I too had a few... Let's call them 'tribulations'... I think we might have had the steep temp a few degrees too hot... Spent a little too much time in the boil, and a little too much time boiling the hops as a result... But...

The good news is, I had an assistant brewmaster... My son-in-law! Consider him a proxy for mashani!

My son in law received a kit for Christmas and went ahead and brew thr WCPA that came with... Stopped by my house and eagerly told me how he was going to have beer in less than two weeks! so, it was the perfect opportunity to take him on a journey...

And so it began, a justifiable collaboration on an Advanced Level brew that gave us the opportunity to discuss his brew ( and his new-found revised timelines) and this new brew... His second and my... Well... Not sure what number this one was actually... Let's call it my first for 2012!

Anyway, we played with ingredients in Brew Calculus, looked at charts and tables from this forum, and sampled grains, extracts and hops before getting started to the tasks at hand.

It took a little while, but we decided on the recipe (see link above).

He assisted with the sanitation protocol, we cleaned spigots as part of that...

The steep... Discussing how we are extracting the sugars from the steeping grain/ and how these grains are a little different as opposed to grains that require mashing.

The boil... There was an understanding look of 'yeah, did that' when I poured in the LME...
BUT you should have see the look on his face as he poured in half the DME and the DME-cicles started forming! We discussed it, and he stirred through it while we brought it back up to temp. Suffice it to say he is now wary of the 'Hot Break'!

We did two hop additions at T-60 and T-20 and discussed the significance of the timing, referring back to the two hop utilization charts we use here so often.

Then it was fill, top off, measure gravity, aerate and pitch... Discussing the need for oxygen before fermentation and what the yeast profile might bring to the party.

The whole process took more than twice as long as it should have, but I believe it was time well spent! It is a good feeling to be able to share what we have taken so long to learn... As we do here on this forum, to the benefit of even one new brewer!

We will let this brew sit for nearly six months and see what we have. By then we both will be several brews beyond today... Good things a brewing... Yes... Good things!

It's good to be able to collaborate... Mashani and I on the initial recipe for this one... The tweaks my son in law and I did based on ingredients at hand... And all the collaboration brews on-going now ( the Borg Black IPA and Chocolate Stout) and the latest round of Fedora Dave's Collaboration Event. Awesome!

Happy Brewing!

:)

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@mashani

Here's the new link for the brew you actually made... That is, as close as I could get Beer Calculus to present it... partial Mash..

http://hopville.com/recipe/1089505/bire-de-garde-recipes/biere-de-garde-collaboration-brew-mashanis-version

and mine, extract plus steeping grains... Note: mine is for 2.5 gallons...

http://hopville.com/recipe/1089847/bire-de-garde-recipes/biere-de-garde-collaboration-brew-bigpapags-version

I screwed up and copied yours so I wouldn't have to retype it when I built mine, and forgot to change the pils LME that you used to the pils DME that I used...

That had the effect of pushing up the OG but lowering my hop utilization...
it was too late when I figured that out.... HAH!

B)

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Awesome that you got to share your brew time with your son-in-law.

FYI, your version of mine you linked has the hop AA way too high. My hops were actuall

Yours sounds really good. It won't be as dark and malty as my version, and the yeast you chose is going to impart a lot more flavors then the ones I used, so it will end up being a lot more Belgianish (vs. what some folks consider boring frenchish, which is what mine will be LOL). I didn't even know you could still get that yeast. I think it's a lot like the Ardennes (3522)? Man now your making me want to brew something with that yeast. I'm itching to brew a strong golden, that might make a very intersting one. But I'd say your malt bill is going to be better with that yeast then if you had stayed close to mine. That yeast and my malt bill would have gotten in a fight for dominance. The extra finishing hops you used should be nice along with that yeast.

I've actually managed to keep my temps 56-57ish, so all my batches are still activly fermenting believe it or not. I perved the S-23 version and can still see waves on the surface. So mine are going to be pretty clean from the yeast standpoint, especially the Kolsch version. The Kolsh version still has Krausen (as does my +1 Kolsch of Darkness sitting next to it).

I totally figure that I'm going to brew this again next year and tweak the malt bill around depending on what flavors I want to bring more to the forefront. I don't expect this beer to be the end-all Biere de Garde for me, especially since it ended up so experimental in nature due to issues. No idea what I'm going to get except for a complex malt profile.

If we can hook up over the summer when I am out camping in your parts, I'll bring bottles of each (and also the actual Kolsch like beer if I still have any LOL, and anything else I have of interest).

If you are interested in collaborating on a strong golden ale, we can try to brew something more similar to each other LOL. I think I want to brew one of those and also a quad.

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Awesome! Yeah, I think I'ld like to do a quad soon...

I know you are rockin' the St. Bernardus right now... But I think I'm leaning a bit closer to the Ommegang Three PhIlosophers...

Edit: I figure at least six months on the Biere de Garde so i will definitely have some of that and whatever else I deem 'ready' should we have an opportunity to pour a few...

:)

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Ok, I updated your recipe and lowered the AA on the to 3.7 each... Should be closer to how you are describing it.

Note that due to the late addition of the LME, the overall IBU value reads higher than the actual will be...

One of the querks of Beer Calculus. :S

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That's probably pretty close, the late addition does increase hop utilization a bit, so the software isn't crazy, but because I was doing a parital volume boil it will counter that affect.

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Yup, didn't mean to imply the SW was acting incorrectly...

Just something to remember when using it.

I'm thinking of harvesting this yeast since the gravity is reasonable...

Might have to do that as I think it is a limited release.

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I bottled the Kolsch yeast version of this beer today. It finished at 1.016 due to my big starter and low mash temps. I'd have liked another point or two, maybe will get it with the lager version. But I won't complain because the hydrometer sample tasted outrageous, like an octoberfest mixed with a Belgian strong dark ale, with a bit of honey and a hint of fruit from the Kolsch yeast. I decided to bottle it vs. let it on the yeast cake longer based on how nice it tasted.

The S-23 lager version isn't done yet. It was still activly fermenting (visibly - waves on surface) just a few days ago. I'm going to raise my temps to the mid 60s for a few days, then back down to 57 for another week, then bottle it if it's done I think.

Both fermented 57-58 up to this point. Great temps for Kolsh, maybe a tad high for the S-23 but it has been fermenting slow and steady, not out of control, so I think it's gonna turn out well too.

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I bottled the S-23 lager version of this today. It finished at 1.015. It tasted quite different then the Kolsch version, it had a fruity note, and more caramel and toffee like flavors apparent. There may be a touch of diacetyl lingering in there that is mixing with the honey malts and caramel malts that's influincing this. It doesn't taste like buttered popcorn or anything, but the toffee flavor makes me wonder if there is a hint of it still there that is playing with the malt, or if it's just because of the fruity yeast profile.

Of course everything may change when both of them condition, it will be interesting to see how they shake out in 4 to 6 months.

I did get one really trubby bottle of this version that I might crack early.

EDIT: The fruityness makes me understand why I see S-23 haters out there. Lucky for me, I like fruity belgian ales, so a fruity pseudo-belgian french lager works for me too.

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Ok, bottled my Biere de Garde today...

OG = 1.073
FG = 1.014

Great attenuation... the Wyeast 3655 Belgian Schelde is awesome!

Smell is Belgian, light fruit...

Taste of the hydro sample reveals some pear, some spicyness... sort of a cross between clovy and pepper... there is a bit of tartness and earthiness to it... and it's nicely dry.

Carbed to about 3.2 vCO2.

This will be pretty good in a few months!

Pourn pic below...

Biere_de_Garde_hydro.jpg

:cheer:

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Nice! I'm surprised that your color isn't that much lighter then mine. I expected it to be quite a bit lighter since I ended up using so much Munich, and you used some sugar where I didn't. I guess your special b was of the darker variety, as mine is on the light side.

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Yeah, my Special B was probably closer to 200 *L, and I had a bit over 2 ounces of Crystal 60 (slipped a bit when weighing so I just left it in...) and 2 ounces of CaraVienne...

It looks a bit darker backlit like that too...

I think it's gonna be pretty good though...

B)

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This is first pour of Bier de Garde Kolsch yeast version.

OMG it's good. I'm going to send a bottle of this to the county fair or other competition for sure.

It's like a slighly dry festbier on crack. First you taste the malt, then the caramel/honey sweetness, but the earthy styrians balance it out and give it a hint of that earthy fuggliscious flavor. The finish leaves that caramel/honey, with a hint of tartness from the Kolsch yeast. It's very much on the malty side of the scale, but it's supposed to be. It's a lovely color, and lighly carbed. It is going down way to easy for a 1.073 beer. It's really very much like a clean lager like brown colored bier de garde should be.

I'm going to crack the S-23 version tomorrow. I'm expecting it to be a bit fruity if how it tasted when I took the hydrometer sample carried through. So it will probably come across a lot differently.

bdg1-20120327.png

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This is S-23 version.

It has a bit less carb, and a touch of fruityness that the Kolsch version doesn't, but it is also slightly drier and crisper. Instead of a distinct caramel and honey note, they blend together into something more like "toffee". I think there is a touch of diactyl lingering here, and that is what's tying those two distinct flavors together into "toffee".

It does not finish with the slight tart note that the Kolsch version does, but instead the "tofee" and touch of fruit lingers. The fruity note also pushes some of the earthy styrians more into the background. Because of how the flavors are tied together more, it seems a bit less complex then the Kolsch yeast version.

I think I'm going to enter both beers in a competition and see how they are judged against one another. I'm actually more interested in that, then how they are judged against other beers. It's unlikely there would be any Bier de Gardes entered anyways, it's not a popular style these days... not a beer for hop heads.

[attachment=7636]bdg2_2012-03-27.png[/attachment]

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They look real good Dave...

Giving mine another week or two (I brewed after you did) then I'll pour one out fer ya'...

If it's up to par, maybe we can enter the same competition and fill out the category!

:whistle:

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"BigPapaG" post=249304 said:

They look real good Dave...

Giving mine another week or two (I brewed after you did) then I'll pour one out fer ya'...

If it's up to par, maybe we can enter the same competition and fill out the category!

:whistle:

That would be interesting, I expect your to be quite differnet then these, much more "belgianish".

I probably won't touch another of these for another month. These beers should be good for a year, it will be interesting to see how they change over time.

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Sounds good, nice descriptions, too.

I've only done a split-yeast test once myself and it was last year when I brewed an oaked ale. At the time I couldn't believe how different they were just from using different yeasts - that was a real eye-opener for me at the time.

Now the hard part....choosing a favorite between the two. It's like Sophie's Choice!

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"mashani" post=256469 said:

How does you Belgiany version taste?

Malt forward... Dry finish, slight spicyness from the yeast, combined with a nice, earthy almost musty quality from the hop/yeast combo I think...

Pretty cool, I'll save you one!

B)

EDIT: I think if I did it again, I would use a bit more crystal... Or maybe go for some kettle carmelization...

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