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StumpyMcNubs

Planning a new twist on shock top

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Hey guys, I'm trying to do some research into a beer recipe that I want to make, but I'm not sure how to make it. What I want is an ale that has semi-strong hop base, a hint of cinnamon, and some citrus overtones. I would also like to get the smoothness of a honey wheat beer in it, but I don't know if that means I need to use honey in it, or if there is a better way to simulate the honey. Now I'm talking about using honey in the wort, not just as a primer when bottling. I do realize that honey takes a while longer to get a full fermentation than if I would use other sugars, but I am fine with waiting. I don't think I will be able to do this recipe for my next batch because I am just about ready to brew again. My biggest question with the cinnamon is do I add the powdered stuff, or do I add actual cinnamon sticks to a hop sack and put that in the mix while I am brewing the wort? Any help would be amazing, because I think this could be the very best beer I have ever tasted once I get the recipe right.

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You have several questions. I will attempt to address the ones that I have experience with.

Cinnamon = use either. I have used both with good results. In my Jingle My Bells Christmas Ale and Pumpkin Patch Ale I used powder, Cranberry Maibock used the stick. I would probably start with one stick or 1-tsp.

Citrus = Citra and Cascade hops will help with the hop and citrus flavors. Juice of two lemons and 1-2 tblsp of zest at flame-out.
The hop boils were .5oz each at 22min and .5oz each at 7min for my Bengal Tiger Citrus IPA along with 4g of Coriander. I just did a Lemon Spice (MB Spiced Lemon Wheat) per directions and it is quite good at 5 weeks. All of the flavors have melded together for a nice crisp beer. It has a light short head and is very drinkable. I will be making this one for summer. Will probably add 2 tblsp of zest for the next batch.

Corriander seed is also a great addition for citrus flavor.

All in all, I think the MB Spiced Lemon Wheat straight up would be a good choice. You could also sub out the Fromunda yeast and use the Fermentis WB-06 yeast specific for wheat beers.

OR

You can follow my brew notes below.

EDIT:
Lemon Spice
------------
Brewer: Old Fart
Style: Spice, Herb or Vegetable Beer
Batch: 2.25 galExtract

Characteristics
---------------
Recipe Gravity: 1.039 OG
Recipe Bitterness: 19 IBU
Recipe Color: 6° SRM
Estimated FG: 1.010
Alcohol by Volume: 3.7%
Alcohol by Weight: 2.9%

Ingredients
-----------
MrB. Golden Wheat UME 1.21 lb, Extract, Extract
MrB. Whispering Wheat Weizenbier1.21 lb, Extract, Extract

MrB. Whispering Wheat Weizenbier1.00 oz, Pellet, 5 minutes
Perle 0.25 oz, Whole, 15 minutes
Perle 0.25 oz, Whole, 0 minutes

Safbrew WB-06 Dry Wheat Yeast 1.00 unit, Yeast, Temperature Range: 59°-75° F 11.5 GRAMS

Notes
-----
Recipe Notes:
4 tbs Lemon jiuce
3/4 tsp Coriander, crushed
1/2 tsp Nutmeg
1/2 tsp Cinnamon
1 tsp lemon zest at secondary
dry hop 1/4 oz Perle

Batch Notes:

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Thanks, that does help a lot. Does any one know how long it would take to ferment in the LBK if I used honey for/with the boost?
One other question, what type of orange has the strongest zest? The reason I ask is because I know that some have a much stronger taste then others, and I would like to use a stronger tasting one then a light tasting one, because I am pretty sure that a lighter zest won't show up very well in a hoppy beer.

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StumpyMcNubs wrote:

Thanks, that does help a lot. Does any one know how long it would take to ferment in the LBK if I used honey for/with the boost?
One other question, what type of orange has the strongest zest? The reason I ask is because I know that some have a much stronger taste then others, and I would like to use a stronger tasting one then a light tasting one, because I am pretty sure that a lighter zest won't show up very well in a hoppy beer.

Fermention should still be done at 3 weeks no matter what. Taste the beer at the three week mark and if it's not sweet and tastes like flat beer it's done.

Invest in a Hydrometer! With this you will always know when your beer is done fermenting and takes out any guess work. It'll be the best $8-$9 you'll ever spend for this hobby.

As far as orange zest goes I'm out of my element on that one. I would say try what you like and go from there. Anyway good Luck!!!

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My experience with orange zest is that it is flat with lasting flavor compared to lemon. The citric acid just isn't as intense. IMHO

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Sounds great, but do I need to use whole coriander or does crushed/powdered work? And as for the hydrometer, I will definitely pick one up. also, what does LHBS stand for? Sorry. So this is what I have for a recipe so far, keep in mind that it isn't done yet, and I don't have all the measurements either, it's just a ruff sketch.

Start with a wheat based HME
boost
honey
about 3/4 tbs coriander, crushed
about 2 bitter orange rinds, zested
about 1 or 2 lemon rinds, zested
3/4 tbs cinnamon

So that is all I have so far, any thoughts on editing?

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StumpyMcNubs wrote:

Sounds great, but do I need to use whole coriander or does crushed/powdered work? And as for the hydrometer, I will definitely pick one up. also, what does LHBS stand for? Sorry. So this is what I have for a recipe so far, keep in mind that it isn't done yet, and I don't have all the measurements either, it's just a ruff sketch.

Start with a wheat based HME
boost
honey
about 3/4 tbs coriander, crushed
about 2 bitter orange rinds, zested
about 1 or 2 lemon rinds, zested
3/4 tbs cinnamon

So that is all I have so far, any thoughts on editing?


Yes, crushed coriander seeds.

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StumpyMcNubs wrote:

Sounds great, but do I need to use whole coriander or does crushed/powdered work? And as for the hydrometer, I will definitely pick one up. also, what does LHBS stand for? Sorry. So this is what I have for a recipe so far, keep in mind that it isn't done yet, and I don't have all the measurements either, it's just a ruff sketch.

Start with a wheat based HME
boost
honey
about 3/4 tbs coriander, crushed
about 2 bitter orange rinds, zested
about 1 or 2 lemon rinds, zested
3/4 tbs cinnamon

So that is all I have so far, any thoughts on editing?

LHBS stands for Local Home Brew Store.

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StumpyMcNubs wrote:

Sounds great, but do I need to use whole coriander or does crushed/powdered work? And as for the hydrometer, I will definitely pick one up. also, what does LHBS stand for? Sorry. So this is what I have for a recipe so far, keep in mind that it isn't done yet, and I don't have all the measurements either, it's just a ruff sketch.

Start with a wheat based HME
boost
honey
about 3/4 tbs coriander, crushed
about 2 bitter orange rinds, zested
about 1 or 2 lemon rinds, zested
3/4 tbs cinnamon

So that is all I have so far, any thoughts on editing?

I would go with 3/4 teaspoon of each spice instead of tablespoon. Spices won't mellow out with conditioning and I've found that less is better as spices can really overwhelm your brew. Given how much orange and lemon your putting in there 3/4 teaspoon should be more than enough IMHO!

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Screwy Brewer wrote:

I used freeze dried bitter orange rinds that I picked up at my LHBS, mixed with coriander you can't believe the citrusy goodness.

Hey Screwy: what is your recipe for your Witz Witbier, I just purchased a lot of Whispering Wheat on sale at BB&B and I am searching for a nice wheat recipe and this thread looks promising. Thanks.

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Scottbrew wrote:

Screwy Brewer wrote:

I used freeze dried bitter orange rinds that I picked up at my LHBS, mixed with coriander you can't believe the citrusy goodness.

Hey Screwy: what is your recipe for your Witz Witbier, I just purchased a lot of Whispering Wheat on sale at BB&B and I am searching for a nice wheat recipe and this thread looks promising. Thanks.

I'd be interested as well. Thanks

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Ok, I will deffinitly take that advice about the spices. So this is the new revised recipe:

Start with a wheat based HME
boost
honey
about 3/4 tsp coriander, crushed
about 2 bitter orange rinds, zested
about 2 lemon rinds, zested
3/4 tsp cinnamon

I don't know how much honey to add for the fermentation process though, but I am thinking about 1 1/2 to 2 cups of warm honey added during flame out. I was thinking about using clover honey to help with the aroma. The spices and zest to be added either at flame out or after the cool down. Not sure which yet.

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I apologize if I am late to the party...but I hope this helps.

In regard to the honey...a great suggestion would be to take a small hops bag. One big enough to hold about 2 lbs of grain. Buy yourself about 1 to 1.5 lbs of Honey Malt grain. Steep that and you'll find a nice, rich honey flavor.

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Sounds great! So this is the newest revision of the recipe:

Start with a wheat based HME
boost
1 cup brown sugar
1 lb of honey Malt
about 3/4 tsp coriander, crushed
about 2 bitter orange rinds, zested
about 2 lemon rinds, zested
3/4 tsp cinnamon

I'll start with boiling the honey malt in a grain bag until I start to get a good wart going, I'll add the wheat HME at about 2 min to flame out. The zest will be added at flame out and the spices will be added after the cool down.
The I will add the wort to the LBK. After this I will add the brown sugar to give it a little extra something to ferment.

The zest I will get as fine as I can so that the beer will have as little floaties as possible. Or, if it's possible, I would like to make the zest a little chunkier and put it in another grain bag or something similar, and just keep that in the LBK, that way when I go to bottle, there won't be any zest floating around.
Any opinions on this so far?

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Personally, I'd be careful with using 1lb. IMHO, that's way overkill. I don't use honey malt for more than 10% of my bill when I use it. I think that no more than 25% is the recommendation, but I find it very, very sweet if I go above 10%. Also, I don't really get a honey flavor from it, but that, of course, is subjective. I get a sweet and toasty flavor, but not necessarily honey. I will note that many say that they get the honey flavor, so your tastes may vary.

If it were me, I might just try 0.5lb on the first go. I would rather say "wow, I wish that had more honey flavor, but it's still good" than "wow, that honey/sweet way overpowers this beer and I don't want to drink it."

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StumpyMcNubs wrote:

Sounds great! So this is the newest revision of the recipe:

Start with a wheat based HME
boost
1 cup brown sugar
1 lb of honey Malt
about 3/4 tsp coriander, crushed
about 2 bitter orange rinds, zested
about 2 lemon rinds, zested
3/4 tsp cinnamon

I'll start with boiling the honey malt in a grain bag until I start to get a good wart going, I'll add the wheat HME at about 2 min to flame out. The zest will be added at flame out and the spices will be added after the cool down.
The I will add the wort to the LBK. After this I will add the brown sugar to give it a little extra something to ferment.

The zest I will get as fine as I can so that the beer will have as little floaties as possible. Or, if it's possible, I would like to make the zest a little chunkier and put it in another grain bag or something similar, and just keep that in the LBK, that way when I go to bottle, there won't be any zest floating around.
Any opinions on this so far?


I've never used honey malt. Does it need to be mashed or can you steep it? I wouldn't boil it either way.

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I've only mashed it thus far, but everything I've read states that it's essentially the same type of thing as a crytal and it can be steeped. Good catch on the boil.

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Thank you guys. That could have ended terribly. So, the recipe now looks like this:

Whispering Wheat Weizenbier HME
boost
1 cup brown sugar
1/2 lb of honey Malt
about 3/4 tsp coriander, crushed
about 2 bitter orange rinds, zested
about 2 lemon rinds, zested
3/4 tsp cinnamon

I'll start with steeping the honey malt in a grain bag in a separate pot.
I'll add the wheat HME to a pot of boiling water/boost for about 2 min, followed by cold crashing it.
Then I will pour the steeped honey malt into the whispering wheat.
The zest will be added at flame out of the whispering wheat, or it will be put into a small grain bag and added once the wort is in the LBK. The spices will be added after the cool down.
The I will add the wort to the LBK. After this I will add the brown sugar to give it a little extra something to ferment.

If it's possible, I would like to make the zest a little chunkier and put it in another grain bag or something similar, and just keep that in the LBK, that way when I go to bottle, there won't be any zest floating around.

Well guys, I think this will either be really good with a moderate to high abv, or it will be too sweet, in which case I might have to add some hops to it, or take the brown sugar out and just use the boost.
What do you guys think?

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Im a couple days late.. maybe you brewed this already. Make sure to let us know how it goes.

First, dont boil the hme. And I would suggest instead of brown sugar get a pound of light or wheat dme if you can, or just skip the brown sugar. I think you will be happier with the taste that way. Otherwise, looks interesting, and should be good! I just brewed something similar, in the fermenter now, here's my recipe:

1 can WWW HME
1 lb Breiss Wheat DME
1 pouch booster
3 TBSP honey

.5 tsp coriander
.5 tsp cinnamon
.25 tsp nutmeg
zest of 1 orange
zest of 2 lemons

WB-06 yeast 1 pack 11.5 g

Dissolve and boil DME and booster, add spices, lemon zest, and honey, boil 3 minutes.
At flameout, add WWW HME.
cold water in keg, at wort, top of with cold water, aerate, pitch yeast, aerate. Ferment 2-3 weeks. I have second thoughts about adding any honey, but its in there!

Its a bit of an experiment for me hope it turns out!
and keep us posted on your progress!

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sounds really great! One thing that I here on here a lot is that if you use honey to use about 1 cup of that instead of using the boost, otherwise you don't get enough of the honey taste and aroma to matter. I will take the not boiling into my recipe. I haven't brewed it yet because I want to wait for my third or fourth brew. The reason that I was thinking about the brown sugar is because I am probably going to lager this, and I want some extra sugars to up the abv. I will look into the flavor profile of that dme though and see if it fits with the rest of it.

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StumpyMcNubs wrote:

One thing that I here on here a lot is that if you use honey to use about 1 cup of that instead of using the boost, otherwise you don't get enough of the honey taste and aroma to matter.

Personally, I wouldn't replace Booster with honey. Booster has maltodextrin to provide body to the beer, while honey does not. Thus, you'll get a thinner beer with honey than you will with Booster. Of course, malt extract (UME) will provide an even fuller beer than Booster. I guess it depends on what style you are trying to achieve...

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I would use large pieces of rind instead of zesting them. Zesting would be too much work in my opinion because you would have to get it down to a size where it would be able to pass through your spigot and not be chunky while you're drinking. If you used a microplane the zest might sink to the bottom with the trub but I can't back that up with anything.

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Another thing.. if you do use brown sugar.. or dme, hme, or a can of ume.. you can boil THAT with the booster for a couple minutes.. and be sure to watch closely so it doesn't boil over. Just save the www hme until you take it off the boil.

And you're right, to get honey flavor, I think the honey malt you are using is better than adding actual honey.

About using large pieces of rinds instead of the zest.. you could do that but again, don't put the white part of the rind in, everyone says that makes it extremely bitter.

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BananaHands wrote:

I would use large pieces of rind instead of zesting them. Zesting would be too much work in my opinion because you would have to get it down to a size where it would be able to pass through your spigot and not be chunky while you're drinking. If you used a microplane the zest might sink to the bottom with the trub but I can't back that up with anything.


Bad idea. The white part of the round is incredibly bitter. The zest adds flavor.

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Thats what I meant, I was trying to avoid saying zest twice in the same sentence and it was referred to earlier as "orange rind - zested" so I assumed thats how it would have been interpreted.

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You were right about the honey, I was hoping that if a person was using that they were going to use a ume for body. As far as the zest goes, how do I keep that from clogging up the spigot? I understand why it needs to be zest, not the whole rind now, which is good. I probably would have zested to the white stuff if you guys didn't say something.
The reason I wanted to boil the hme for a couple of minutes is because I read somewhere on here that it is possible the hme could have been contaminated during packaging, so the quick boil would be just to sanitize.

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Use a vegetable peeler to take just take off the orange part. Keep it in large chunks and you should be able to pick the whole thing out before you bottle or would at least be able to see when it was getting close to the spigot. It wouldn't go through anyway.

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maybe 2 minutes boiling would be ok, I don't know... but I've never boiled hme just put it in as soon as you turn off the burner. Never had a problem with it. Just make sure all your tools are sanitized including spoon or spatula.

Hopefully most of the zest or peels would just sink into the tribute at the bottom. Or you could try a hop sack. Try cold crashing by placing the keg in the fridge for 3 days before you bottle it that will help everything sink down too.

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This is all really good advise guys. So this is what the recipe looks like now. I just started some bewitched red ale this weekend, so I won't be able to brew this until my red ale is done fermenting.

Whispering Wheat Weizenbier HME
boost
1 cup brown sugar
1/2 lb of honey Malt
about 3/4 tsp coriander, crushed
about 2 bitter orange rinds, zested
about 2 lemon rinds, zested
3/4 tsp cinnamon, powdery stuff

steep the honey malt
zest the oranges and lemons with a potato peeler, goal is to have big pieces.
add boost to 4 cups water, boil, take off heat.
add WWW
add honey malt extract
add spices
put into LBK and stir, let sit 5 min
add yeast, stir
add orange and lemon zest
let ferment.

I'm thinking about doing the 2-2-2 rule for this, but I'm not sure that 2 weeks is long enough to ferment all the sugars. I'm leaning closer to doing a 3-2-2. What do you guys think?

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Why don't you use the steep water to put the Booster in, instead of doing that in parallel? I assume you're adding the brown sugar pre-boil along with the Booster?

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Yup, I am planning on adding it with the boost, I thought I added that, but looking over the post now I realize I left it out. Good catch, thanks. And that sounds like a good idea to add the brown sugar and boost to the steeped water.
Do you prefer a specific water temp. to steep, or do you just kinda "wing it", like using the cold, luke warm, warm hot type of method?

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swenocha wrote:

I've only mashed it thus far, but everything I've read states that it's essentially the same type of thing as a crytal and it can be steeped. Good catch on the boil.

I've steeped honey malt successfully...and I'm thinking even a half pound might be too much. I would try a quarter or third of a pound as a starting point. I did a quarter pound in a honey wheat and it was quite noticeable.

I'm also not sure where your recipe ended up, but what I'm seeing is one HME plus adjuncts. That's going to be a low gravity beer and possibly on the cidery side without more malt. If you're getting some honey malt anyway, get some DME or LME to add to this as well.

Cheers!

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StumpyMcNubs wrote:

Yup, I am planning on adding it with the boost, I thought I added that, but looking over the post now I realize I left it out. Good catch, thanks. And that sounds like a good idea to add the brown sugar and boost to the steeped water.
Do you prefer a specific water temp. to steep, or do you just kinda "wing it", like using the cold, luke warm, warm hot type of method?

155-175 is a good range to be in. Most on here say get it to 170 and steep off heat from there.

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StumpyMcNubs wrote:

Thanks for the temp range, I'll use that then. As far as the DME/LME, what would be a good citrusy one to use?


You wouldn't get any citrus flavor from the DME/LME. Its going to give you more malt. You can get citrus flavor from hops though, ie. citra or cascade.

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ok, thanks. I'm new at all of this, only brewed 2 batches so far. That's why I'm researching this recipe first. So would it matter what DME/LME I used as far as flavor or body go?

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Gluek wrote:

Im a couple days late.. maybe you brewed this already. Make sure to let us know how it goes.

First, dont boil the hme. And I would suggest instead of brown sugar get a pound of light or wheat dme if you can, or just skip the brown sugar. I think you will be happier with the taste that way. Otherwise, looks interesting, and should be good! I just brewed something similar, in the fermenter now, here's my recipe:

1 can WWW HME
1 lb Breiss Wheat DME
1 pouch booster
3 TBSP honey

.5 tsp coriander
.5 tsp cinnamon
.25 tsp nutmeg
zest of 1 orange
zest of 2 lemons

WB-06 yeast 1 pack 11.5 g

Dissolve and boil DME and booster, add spices, lemon zest, and honey, boil 3 minutes.
At flameout, add WWW HME.
cold water in keg, at wort, top of with cold water, aerate, pitch yeast, aerate. Ferment 2-3 weeks. I have second thoughts about adding any honey, but its in there!

Its a bit of an experiment for me hope it turns out!
and keep us posted on your progress!

Did you ever brew your shock top clone? My brew quoted above is similar, but I wasn't attempting to replicate shocktop. I tried one at three weeks, thought it was too sweet and too spicy, not terrible. Each week it has improved, and at week five I would classify it as more of a spicy hefeweizen. Its a very good beer, blows shock top away!

That said, being my first of this brew, I would have changed some things if I did it again... Id probably just do the zest of lemon OR orange, half tsp coriander, and maybe omit the cinnamon and nutmeg. I'd probably skip the honey too. Just so Id have more of a baseline to compare it to. There's a lot going on with all the spices, and the zest I believe adds a lot. One thing is the head retention is minimal. Im thinking that has to do with all the citrus zest cutting the head. Not sure. At any rate it has an interesting aroma and is a nice beer if you like a citrusy wheat. Its the first time I've used the WB-06 yeast and Im happy with the results.

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Hi all! I have been absent for some time now, and I'm sorry for that. I am trying to start up/run two businesses, and I've been really busy. I've only managed to brew two more batches since last I was on. Unfortunately, this wasn't one of them.
On a happier note, this is what I believe to be my final recipe.

Whispering Wheat Weizenbier HME
3/4 lb Breiss Wheat DME
boost
1 cup brown sugar
1/3 lb of honey Malt
about 3/4 tsp coriander, crushed
about 2 bitter orange rinds, zested
about 2 lemon rinds, zested
3/4 tsp cinnamon, powdery stuff

steep the honey malt and Breiss Wheat,
zest the oranges and lemons with a potato peeler, goal is to have big pieces.
add boost to steeped malt/DME, boil, take off heat.
add WWW
add spices
put into LBK and stir, let sit 5 min
add WB-06 yeast, stir
add orange and lemon zest (placed inside of a grain bag)
let ferment 3 weeks, bottle and let carb. for 2 weeks, cold condition for 2 weeks.

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Sounds like a great recipe. Let us know how it turns out.

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