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ebskinner1

La Fin Du Monde?

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I really enjoy this brew! Matter of fact I think of it as a dessert beer! Might be a little to sweet following a stout.....I tried it..lol

But, has anyone on here tried to make this or know of a recipe that might be similar to, aside from a possible clone I found? I'm curious! I know that this would take some time to age and allow everything to come together and waiting can be such a bother some thing! Let me know if you can!

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To clone that beer with extract my starting point would be Belgian Strong Golden Ale. Except La Fin Du Monde has some wit beer/grand cru like qualities.

So, I'd basically brew a belgian strong golden ale, around 65% pils exctract, 15% wheat extract, and 20% dextrose or cane or belgian clear candi sugar. And then add corriander seed and orange zest as if I was brewing a WIT beer.

Styrian Goldings for the hops. 60 minute and a 30 or 20 minute addition, and then finish with the corriander and orange zest or dried bitter orange peel, but no other finishing hops.

I'm not sure what yeast to use, because the right one (the actual yeast is actually a seasonal offering from Wyeast and it's not avaible at the moment). But I'm thinking Wyeast Forbidden Fruit (3463) might be a good choice.

If you want to nail this down into an actual recipe and try it, I'll brew it with you. Hey BigPapa G might too.

I think we are targeting close to 9%abv, so it won't be drinkable very quickly.

But I'm itching to brew some kind of strong golden ale, this might be a good one.

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Hmmm.. It is the only one from Unibroue that I enjoy...

Technically, its a Trippel... I'd add a bit of honey malt to sweeten a bit against the spicyness of the hops... it should have floral notes as well... Tetnanger might be a good addition. The honey malt plus the wheat would be a good counterpoint against the crispness of the pils.

Which yeast do they use Dave?

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It's actually the only Unibroue beer that I like as well. I'm a big fan of Ommegang, not so much Unibroue.

But I don't consider it to fit the style of a tripel or a strong ale or a grand cru exactly. It's kind of a hybrid beer IMHO.

EDIT: Honey malt is a good idea. I see people throwing aromatic malt into clone recipies, but I think braumalt (honey malt) would actually be more appropriate in a small amount and get you closer.

Anyway, this is the breweries actual yeast I believe. But it's a seasonal/special thing, not always avaialble.

Wyeast 3864-PC Canadian/Belgian Ale
Beer Styles: Belgian Dubbel and Tripel, Belgian Specialty Ale, Belgian Golden Strong, Biere de Garde, Witbier
Profile: This strain has a classic profile producing mild phenolics which increase with higher fermentation temperatures. It has a low ester profile with a dry, slightly tart finish. This strain is alcohol tolerant while producing complex & well balanced beers.

Alc. Tolerance 12%

Flocculation medium

Attenuation 75-79%
Temperature Range 65-80°F (18-27°C)

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Okay, starting point SWAG if you wish based on BigPagaG's ideas... feel free to tweak as this is just a SWAG.

For a Mr. Beer sized batch (2.15 gallons)

4# Pils LME
0.5# Wheat DME
0.75# Candi Sugar
3oz Honey Malt

0.5oz Styrian Bobek (goldings) @60.
0.25oz Tettnanger @60
0.25oz Styrian Bobek (goldings) @30
0.25oz Tettnanager @30

1tsp ground corriander @10
1/2tsp orange zest or bitter orange @flameout

I'm thinking Wyeast 3463 Forbidden Fruit or Wyeast 3522 Belgian Ardennes if you can't get the real yeast which I don't think we can ATM. You could probably get away with T-58 actually if you didn't want to use liquid yeast, but I think the liquid yeast would be more interesting.

EDIT: This is 1.09ish, it's going to *need* a starter no matter what yeast is thrown at it. Feeding the candi sugar after 4-5 days might be a good idea, just to keep the yeast from stressing out at the beginning.

I'd not overfill... messy...

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Starting to sound good...

I think hitting the upper temp range for the yeast is approprate, what do you think...

Might accentuate the fruity quality...

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You all have made leaps and bounds where I may have just barely moved my foot and thought about how to approach this brew!! Im excited to work on a project beer! And go beyond my comfort zone.....or what I know for that matter!! What i always thought was interesting was the fruit like smell that came from inside the glass. What drives me nuts is the fact that I cant put my finger on what fruit it is reminiscent of!? I guess that could be a combination of ingredients or the yeast itself!

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AHB does have a clone! They have quite a few clones actually of many beers! Im a newbian so getting that clone and breaking it down for a LBK would be a challenge! Im also not sure how much of the specialty grains and other ingredients are seperated. Never ventured that far! Kinda wanted to stay withing my means as far as spending went....for right now anyway!
I know im gonna look for the ingredients and see what I can come up with from my LHBS and probably have to search for whatever they dont carry or have!! I also see this as a way to get my feet wet! Get a little more involved with the ingredients and and tastes and smells and everything that making beer has to offer! Pretty dag gone exciting! :woohoo:

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FWIW, here's the 5 gallon CloneBrews version (I'll list the extract and grain version, though they have an all-grain as well... Adjust to your batch size):

Steep:
4 oz Gambrinus Honey Malt
3 oz German dark Munich Malt
2 oz Belgian Aromatic Malt

Base:
7.5 lb Munton's extra light DME
1.2 lb cane sugar
1 lb Belgian clear candi sugar

Hops/additions:
0.5 oz Northern Brewer - 10%AA (60 min)
0.67 oz Styrian Goldings - 3%AA (60 min)
0.25 oz Styrian Goldings (15 min)
0.25 oz Hallertau Hersbrucker (15 min)
1 tsp Irish Moss (15 min)
0.25 oz sweet orange peel
0.5 tsp crushed corriander seeds
0.25 oz Czech Saaz (2 min)
0.33 oz bitter orange peel

Wyeast 3864 (2nd choice: Wyeast 1214)

prime with 1.25 cups of Munton's extra light DME

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So would you basically halve the recipe like you would in cooking a cookie recipe? Although I tend to double my cookie recipes! Just using the reference as a comparison! :laugh:

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Guest System Admin

La Fin Du Monde is a terrific choice, never thought of cloning it!

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swenocha wrote:

FWIW, here's the 5 gallon CloneBrews version (I'll list the extract and grain version, though they have an all-grain as well... Adjust to your batch size):

Steep:
4 oz Gambrinus Honey Malt
3 oz German dark Munich Malt
2 oz Belgian Aromatic Malt

Base:
7.5 lb Munton's extra light DME
1.2 lb cane sugar
1 lb Belgian clear candi sugar

Hops/additions:
0.5 oz Northern Brewer - 10%AA (60 min)
0.67 oz Styrian Goldings - 3%AA (60 min)
0.25 oz Styrian Goldings (15 min)
0.25 oz Hallertau Hersbrucker (15 min)
1 tsp Irish Moss (15 min)
0.25 oz sweet orange peel
0.5 tsp crushed corriander seeds
0.25 oz Czech Saaz (2 min)
0.33 oz bitter orange peel

Wyeast 3964 (2nd choice: Wyeast 1214)

prime with 1.25 cups of Munton's extra light DME

Interesting. How accurate do the clone brews recipies generally turn out? I've never noticed a saaz note in that beers finish, but it would probably be fine. I also think I'd personally forgo the Northern Brewer and stick with just noble hops/styrians, as I've decided that stronger bittering hops and Belgians don't get along in general, even if they save time. I'm also not sure that the late hops should be that late, maybe 20 minutes... and I'm not sure about that 1214 either, if you don't ferment that on the cool side you'd end up in banana city, and this beer isn't like that at all, it doesn't taste like Chimay strain to me at all. I think 3964 above should be 3864, don't think there is a 3964... 3864 is what I said their strain actually is. Anyways, just random babbling from the peanut gallery :)

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I haven't tried this specific one. I've been hit or miss with the ones I have done from the CloneBrews book, which is why I stated 'FWIW.' I've generally gotten good beers, but only a couple have been similar enough in the end result to warrant the 'clone' title, IMHO. I like the BYO 250 Clones much better... I've had nothing but great results with it.

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ebskinner1 wrote:

So would you basically halve the recipe like you would in cooking a cookie recipe? Although I tend to double my cookie recipes! Just using the reference as a comparison! :laugh:

To be specifically accurate, I think it would be something like 42% instead of 50%, but yes...

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Darn it alll...

Hit the LHBS today and picked up some Honey Malt... Tetnanger, Pils DME, Wheat DME and a pack of Wyeast 3522 Belgian Ardennes... Had the rest pretty much...

Now I've got to brew it... All your fault I say... :P

Oh woe is me... B)

pssst...: :woohoo:

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Well if anything you'll find out if your on the right track! I was able to find both of those yeast strains listed on NB! Gave me hope!! :cheer:

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BigPapaG wrote:

Darn it alll...

Hit the LHBS today and picked up some Honey Malt... Tetnanger, Pils DME, Wheat DME and a pack of Wyeast 3522 Belgian Ardennes... Had the rest pretty much...

Now I've got to brew it... All your fault I say... :P

Oh woe is me... B)

pssst...: :woohoo:

Post the recipe you brew, and I'll brew something similar and we can compare notes. EDIT: I think even if it doesn't come out like La Fin it's still going to be tasty.

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mashani wrote:

BigPapaG wrote:

Darn it alll...

Hit the LHBS today and picked up some Honey Malt... Tetnanger, Pils DME, Wheat DME and a pack of Wyeast 3522 Belgian Ardennes... Had the rest pretty much...

Now I've got to brew it... All your fault I say... :P

Oh woe is me... B)

pssst...: :woohoo:

Post the recipe you brew, and I'll brew something similar and we can compare notes. EDIT: I think even if it doesn't come out like La Fin it's still going to be tasty.

Agreed! I'm going to punch it into BrewCalc later tonight or in the am and refine it a little...

I'll probably do an LBK sized batch tomorrow.

:silly:

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@ebskinner1

So what do you think, gonna give ot a shot?

Mashani and I can step you through it...

:)

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Yes I am, not gonna be right away though....My lhbs has minimal stuff so im going to have to order just about everything off of NB!!

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Oh and right now I have my cranberry maibock fermenting in my lbk! lol
I'm really looking forward to brewing this up too!

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Awesome...

I banged out a rough draft here...

http://hopville.com/recipe/1120612/belgian-specialty-ale-recipes/its-all-over-la-fin-du-monde-clone

I realized I didn't buy enough Tettnang so I had to add some EKG and Hallertau Mittlefrau as that is what I had here at the house... However the more I think about it, both add some of the characteristics desired (spicy, floral, fruity)... Hmmm...

Now I haven't brewed this yet so it will probably change again... If I can get back to my LHBS before I put it together then I will get some more Tettnang and another yeast pack.

Been reading some and it seems this is triple fermented...

So, I was thinking the Ardennes in the primary and then again in the secondary, and then a few grains of T-58 in each bottle for the third 'fermentation' where it eats up the priming sugar.

I'm thinking about 12 days primary, rack to second vessel and repitch... Then let it sit there for three to four weeks... Might even reserve the sugar until the secondary pitch... The hope is to lower the FG below what it calculates out to in Brew Calc. That would dry it a bit more and add some tartness... i think... :dry:

Looking for mashani to chime in though as I could be way off on the double pitch thing as I have not tried it intentionally before, other than to free up a stuck fermentation.

:)

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We were gonna do your batch right Big Pappa? And as for the triple fermentation, secondary you would add more sugar and some more yeast to it or just more sugar? And would we be using belgian sugar for the whole process?

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Well, I think the recipe is still in flux... We can do mine or some variation that each of you do... No matter, in all cases it should be good beer!

Looking for mashani to weigh in on the second yeast pitch...

What I have done before is just saved the sugar and fedd it to the existing yeast after the primary activity calmed down. In this case, it might call for both the sugar and some more yeast in a secondary... Not sure.

Type of sugar? i have used both cane sugar and candi sugar, both work.

If I were doing a dubbel and wanted some color and complexity from the sugar addition, I would use a Belgian Amber Candi Sugar or syrup most likely...

But if all we are looking for is more fermentables, then the cane sugar works fine.

:)

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I just sent Unibroue an email requesting info on the yeast they use and any other ingredients they could relate to this particular brew! I dont expect much of an answer......I can at least say I tried though! Im trying to help!

Also,I broke yesterday and bought 2 five gallon food grade buckets to use. I know a newb mistake....but I need more stuff to work with! I wanted to ask would it be to much headspace to do a 2.13 gallon brew? What are the pros and cons to using it for less than 5 gallons batches? Im thinking i can do 2 mr beer sized batches and still have adequate headspace in it! Just some thoughts!

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im full of questions and ideas....I could try to harvest some of the yeast from a brew.....I read a little about that. Not sure how to even begin trying that out! Just another thought!

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I have read through some different forums about this clone....I have seen reference many times to Wyeast 3864 (Canadian/Belgian)! It's not out there right now if thats is what is used! I have also seen reference to coriander seed and orange zest or orange bittering and possibly grains of paradise! Either way this will be an exotic brew! Im going to try and contain myself for a bit!

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@ebskinner1 - you could do 2 mr beer batches combined into one in a 5 gallon bucket. But I'd not brew an actual 5 gallon batch in anything under a 6.5 gallon bucket.

As far as yeast and/or harvesting from the bottle/yeast, I'm pretty much certain that the WYeast strain that I said was theirs is theirs. Except you can't get it at the moment. Harvesting from bottles and building it into a big enough starter can work, *if* they bottle with the same yeast they ferment with. That would be a question you could ask them if you feel brave. It would depend on if they brite tank/crash their beers/or filter them to clear them, and I have no idea.

When breweries like this use a different bottling yeast then they ferment with, it's often the same strain as T-58. That strain is very often used in bottle conditioned beers that have been clarified before bottling, and not just for Belgian beers, because it creates just a very light dusting in the bottle.

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Ok so what I will do is 2 mr beer size batches to utilize my new equipment and I will stay away from trying to use the yeast from the bottles! Cool Beans!!

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So im going to go to my LHBS tomorrow and see what I can get from them. I got a list for a few different brews and was curious if there has been any tweaks or thoughts on this brew since last post? I might have to sub some hops for others so I can avoid shipping costs but im not gonna skimp on the yeasties!! Any pointers and advice would be appreciated!

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I have not brewed it yet, don't know about BigPapaG and/or what he finally came up with...

Hey @BigPapaG, what did ya end up making with those goodies?

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BigPapaG wrote:

Awesome...

I banged out a rough draft here...

http://hopville.com/recipe/1120612/belgian-specialty-ale-recipes/its-all-over-la-fin-du-monde-clone

I realized I didn't buy enough Tettnang so I had to add some EKG and Hallertau Mittlefrau as that is what I had here at the house... However the more I think about it, both add some of the characteristics desired (spicy, floral, fruity)... Hmmm...

Now I haven't brewed this yet so it will probably change again... If I can get back to my LHBS before I put it together then I will get some more Tettnang and another yeast pack.

Been reading some and it seems this is triple fermented...

So, I was thinking the Ardennes in the primary and then again in the secondary, and then a few grains of T-58 in each bottle for the third 'fermentation' where it eats up the priming sugar.

I'm thinking about 12 days primary, rack to second vessel and repitch... Then let it sit there for three to four weeks... Might even reserve the sugar until the secondary pitch... The hope is to lower the FG below what it calculates out to in Brew Calc. That would dry it a bit more and add some tartness... i think... :dry:

Looking for mashani to chime in though as I could be way off on the double pitch thing as I have not tried it intentionally before, other than to free up a stuck fermentation.

:)

I never noticed that BigPagaG asked for some input above... Somehow I missed this post entirely.

I can't see how EKG is going to hurt this beer. EKG is good in everything. They probably don't use it, but that doesn't make it bad LOL. I'm sure you could brew any kind of belgian with nothing but EKG and end up with an awesome beer.

I've never tried pitching a whole other pack or starter of the same yeast in the secondary. After 12 days, I'd think there would be plenty of viable yeast being racked over that it would do it's thing, especially if you add sugar in the secondary. But if you do that, make sure the secondary is big enough to be a primary. That said, for any high gravity Belgian I always feed it, just to keep it clean and keep my yeast happy. So I'd at least feed the sugar after primary settles.

Since you arn't filtering it or brite tanking it, bottling yeast should only be needed if you secondary it for a very long time, like 8 weeks+. OR if you were to secondary it very cold, say in the 40's-50's for 4+ weeks. If you did that, you could crash so much of the yeast to need to re-pitch. Usually beers that use a seperate bottling yeast would have met one of the above criteria, be it brite tanking, or extended cold aging. Otherwise it's just not needed, as there should be plenty of viable yeast. OR if instead of priming at bottling, you were to pitch a more attenuative yeast. You can do that. But you have to know your yeasts really well and get proper attenuation in the initial fermentation, so you get primed beer vs. exploded beer.

The A Sorachi Ace I'm drinking was fermented with saison yeast, and then re-fermented and bottle conditioned with champaign yeast. Thats why it tastes like a saison, yet is so freaking dry. If they literally bottled it with the champaign yeast directly I'm sure they didn't prime it, and the saison yeast had to have attenuated highly in the first place. Otherwise it woudl be a big "BOOM!".

EDIT: The only other thing I'll add is the recipe you posted on hopville is almost hop bursting this beer with all those hops at 30. You are going to potentially gain quite a bit of hop flavor from that, which will add to your 15 minute additions. I don't remember the beer having quite that much hop flavor, your getting into saison territory there. Not that this will be bad, it's probably going to taste awesome. Just not sure how close to La Fin that's going to get you.

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Hah... Just saw your update, thanks!

Yeah, I'm thing the triple fermenting may have something to do with the overall dryness and crispness... My guess is the filter going into the secondary (commercially viable method) and hence the need to repitch.

My thought was I would pitch at secondary and do the sugar feeding at the same time, kind of like a 'second wort'.

I'm not sure where I got the impression that they leave it in the secondary for at least four weeks, kind of like a Duvel thing... Hench a few grains of yeast in the bottle to finalize the carbonation.

I have added sugar and yeast at the bottle priming phase before with good results...

As to the hops, yeah, love EKG's (the ones I have are whole cones/leafs!) and I thought they might add a bit to it, but the schedule posted in the recipe had more to do with what was in the fridge that day than anything else.

Planning on grabbing another ounce of Tettnang tomorrow... And maybe another Ardennes yeast... I could always use it in something else if I don't hit the secondary with it!

Gotta get something going this weekend though... As well as bottling my Biere de Garde!

Thanks for your insight, greatly appreciated as always!

:woohoo:

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One word of warning I've read as I've researched doing something like this... strong bottles are a must... You'll note most commercial varieties of these types of beers come in sturdy bottles. You'll want to follow suit if you are not kegging.

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swenocha wrote:

One word of warning I've read as I've researched doing something like this... strong bottles are a must... You'll note most commercial varieties of these types of beers come in sturdy bottles. You'll want to follow suit if you are not kegging.

Thanks Swen...

Right you are...

I have been saving up 11.5 oz Duvel bottles and when I run out, I have a few dozen Champaign bottles from my wine making adventures... Got fresh corks, and my LHBS happens to have crimp caps that fit those!

Should be good to go here...

:)

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BigPapaG wrote:


I have been saving up 11.5 oz Duvel bottles...

Pretty darn good free beer in those, and if they can't stand the pressure, nothings gonna!

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My lhbs is out of ekg's....drats! I have been looking up subs for the things I am not able to get! Not what I really want to do...but its an experiment anyhow,so, trial and error I suppose! I still have to get a few things before i'm set to do this brew! Just been picking here and there at the lhbs!

Bottles? I have some la fin bottles I purposely held onto and some guinness foreign extra stout bottles and some bells bottles! La fin would probably work not so sure about the others!

Yeast....I have intentionally held off on purchasing the yeast. I don't have a clue whether it can be stored in a fridge or freezer (might kill it or something).

And my last hooray...I purchased my hydrometer! Go Me!! :silly:

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The yeast, if you buy the ones recommended above, all go in your refrigerator (NOT FREEZER) until the night before or the day that you are going to brew with them. And then if you are using one that's a "smack pack" (Wyeast) you pull it out, squeeze it a bit and find this little "thingie" that you feel inside, push it to a corner and hold it there with one hand, and give it a good smack against the your counter with the palm of your other hand. Hopefully breaking that inner bag your feeling. That gives the yeast some nutrients to wake them up before they go into your beer. Just leave it out at room temp at this point, and the pouch should puff up in 3 to 8 hours if you have really broken the inner thingie. Even if it doesn't it's probably ok, I've pitched uninflated packs and gotten beer.

This is most certainly trial and error. I don't think BigPapaG's recipe is going to make La Fin. But it will likely make something good, and perhaps it will even be more awesome you never know!

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Thanks Mashani! I'm really excited about this! Even if it doesnt create La Fin! What else is holding me back is the possibility of moving! I would hate to be in the middle of a fermentation or in secondary and have to move! lol

Dont worry though when I have everything I will need some guidance on specs and such...temps and what have you! Im not going to leave anyone out of the loop....except when it comes to drinking it! Might be a tad difficult sending that out!! lol If I can stay out of it!!!

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If you have'nt done it, or decided on one, I found this in my recipe box. Have not done it yet, so no other info on it, other than it's not my recipe. I don't remember where it came from, probably here over the last couple years.

La Fin Du Monde
4 lbs Belgian Pils
1 lbs Belgian Caravienne
1 lbs German Wheat Malt Light
1 lbs Crystal Malt 10°L
5 lbs Dry Extra Light; Muntons
.5 lbs Candi Sugar Clear
1 oz Perle (Pellets, 8.25 %AA) boiled 60 min.
1 oz Styrian Goldings (Pellets, 6.00 %AA) boiled 15 min.
Yeast : White Labs WLP500 Trappist Ale

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mashani wrote:

This is most certainly trial and error. I don't think BigPapaG's recipe is going to make La Fin. But it will likely make something good, and perhaps it will even be more awesome you never know!

LOL! Agreed!

Not close yet... Still researching... FIT's has merit... More to do...

:)

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Thanks FrozenIn Time! I'm going to put it in my recipe book with the several I have managed to accumulate from the different styles I like!! I can see this getting way out of control.....starts as one book that turns into many books with each book for a specific style! Not surprised though! It's Awesome!!

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BigPapaG wrote:

mashani wrote:

This is most certainly trial and error. I don't think BigPapaG's recipe is going to make La Fin. But it will likely make something good, and perhaps it will even be more awesome you never know!

LOL! Agreed!

Not close yet... Still researching... FIT's has merit... More to do...

:)

FITs sounds good, but I'd use all styrians or some other hop for the bittering, I've not been as pleased with Perle as my bittering hop in Belgians as just using more lower AA hops. Also, I don't think WLP500 gets you the right character, may as well brew a Chimay! Not that Chimay is bad.

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So what is this FITs you both refer too? I also wanted to point out that the other day I had a moment of,"ah ha!!" when the little woman was cutting up bananas! And it hit me, thats some of that essence that I smelled in la fin! Totally caught me off gaurd!

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ebskinner1 wrote:

So what is this FITs you both refer too? I also wanted to point out that the other day I had a moment of,"ah ha!!" when the little woman was cutting up bananas! And it hit me, thats some of that essence that I smelled in la fin! Totally caught me off gaurd!


FIT: Frozen In Time.

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Wow,I just had a moment in time! Thanks bp!

Yeast for this I was thinking Belgian Ardennes! Listed profile for it sounds good!!

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ebskinner1 wrote:

Wow,I just had a moment in time! Thanks bp!

Yeast for this I was thinking Belgian Ardennes! Listed profile for it sounds good!!

Well if you like the banana, you could go with WLP500 or the Wyeast Abby (chimay strains). If you ferment those warm, our going to get *a whole bunch* of banana!

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The Ardennes yeast is going to be better at your temps I think. It's better able to "contain" it's ester profile at those temps.

I consider 68 to be "warm" for the Abbey/WPL500. At 70 or above, especially during initial primary, it will give you a lot of banana and a good bit of clove, and potentially some "bubblegum" flavor as well. If it gets between 72 and 75 it's possibly going to be over the top bubblegum and banana depending depending on your taste sensativity. The clove can get "bandaidy" and the banana "fake banana extract like" if it gets too strong. Some of this will mellow with age, it just depends on you. Some people love it. Others hate it. Some people taste these things very strongly in small amounts, others not so much. So can't really judge for you, only tell you what I think.

La Fin Du Mondes banana is subtle IMHO. I don't think it will be so subtle with WPL500 or the Abbey if you ferment 70+.

So again, I think based on what you say your temps are, Ardennes is probably going to work better for you.

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Something along the lines of:

5# of 2 row
1.25# of wheat
0.5# of 10L crystal

That will get you pretty close. Maybe 0.25# of crystal... hard to say, I don't know the exact makeup of the light extract, but it will have some crystal in it.

EDIT: My origional numbers were too low, based on LME, this should be closer I think...

EDIT EDIT: You have to mash the above btw... if you don't already know that... Don't even think about trying to steep it!

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I just need to get the approximate grain bill....then once im ready I will ask you and Papa for some details!!

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That was just to replace the DME.

If your trying to brew Big Papa G's version then you would want to add 4oz of catafoam, 3oz of honey malt, and 6oz of sugar.

Or you could brew the other recipie posted above somwehre, it used pils and wheat and crystal I think. The only changes I'd make to it is to use styrians for the bittering hop, and because of your temps use a differnet yeast like the Ardaanes...

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Thanks Mashani for being patient and guiding me on this! I'm hoping to get this pulled together soon....real soon!

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It's not a problem. Always happy to help. I haven't had a chance to brew either version of this yet, my temps right now are actually too cold, so I'm brewing IPAs and lagers while I've got them.

BTW, 5# of PILS would actually be better to match the style then 2-row. I should have mentioned that when I was subbing for the DME. But if you use pils you *must* boil it for 90 minutes, where you can do 60 for the 2-row.

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Alright so I'm going to an LHBS by my sisters tomorrow....it's bigger and better than my local....whoops maybe I shouldnt have put the l in the hbs....anyways, so i'm going to pull this all together including my yeast! With my temps I should be good! I was going to try a west india porter but the temps for the yeast are supposed to be in the 68 and lower range....kinda frustrating, I dont know how I am going to approach that recipe (save it for another time Skinner)! I was also thinking of doing this one a BIAB! My first all-grain attempt and i'm sure my efficiency isnt going to be the greatest but I will try to get as much out of it as possible! Its the least I can do!

So before I go (tomorrow morning),any last minute things I need or any pointers you might have are welcome!

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Well, the advice that mashani gave is good...

The recipe I posted is a work in progress and at this point is NOT a La Fin du Monde clone by any streach of the imagination...

What is the total recipe you are going to brew?

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I know its not a la fin, its a work in progress! I was going to go with a modified version of your recipe. Instead of using DME go all grain! In place of the DME I was going to use:

Malts and Fermentables
#5 Pils
#1.25 Wheat
#.25 10L Crystal
(Per Mashani's posted instruction on the DME to all-grain switch)
6 oz. Cane sugar
4 oz. Carafoam
3 oz. Gambrinus Honey Malt

Hops (Not broken down but in total)
.5 oz. East Kent Goldings
.5 oz. Styrian Goldings
.75 oz. Tettnang
.25 oz. Hallertauer Mittelfrueh
Wyeast Belgian Ardennes (3522)
And because I don't have a second pot to boil the wort I was going to do it as a BIAB! I may look at pots while i'm out and change my mind! But, for now that's my plan. I know I will have excess ingredients in case I have to have more to make up for my lack of efficiency!

Thats it for the moment!

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I don't know what it will be except for tasty (this recipe got a mind of its own at some point LOL), but that much is certain I'm sure. Just make sure you do a 90 minute boil (the wort, not necessarily any of the hops) since your mashing Pils. If you can hold your mash temps on the lower end (147-149) you will get a lighter bodied beer if that's what you would like - probably a good thing for this style. Note that at lower temps I might take more then 60 minutes for the mash to complete in my experience.

Keeping a little bit of DME around is always a good "efficiency fixer upper".

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Ok I'm back,I wasnt able to get exactly what I wanted but I did get everything that will make it work! Instead of cane sugar I got dark candi sugar. Instead of the Wyeast I got White labs Belgian Golden Ale Yeast WLP 570....and instead of carafoam they gave me an anti foaming packet.....Still need to get a big muslin bag or something similar to do this up! Pretty Dagone excited!! :woohoo:

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The yeast is good.

The dark candi sugar will make it look and taste a bit like a dubbel. Oh well! (it will still be good beer!).

The anti-foaming packet doesn't do anything at all like what carafoam would do. If your going to feed it, I would save that thing and use it with the sugar solution your going to add, it might help keep it from blowing the lid off your fermenter if the yeast gets too happy.

Frankenbiers FTW.

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Carafoam- This is a dextrin malt to add body,mouthfeel and head retention to your beer!
-RB-

Well,how about that?! I have Dextrin! Not Carafoam and I can get cane sugar from the store. I am determined to get as close as I can! A little bummed about the yeast but I'm not gonna cry over it....maybe a little..lol And I can get muslin from the fabric store and have my mom sew up a bag (she used to be a seamstress and make bridal gowns and prom dresses and still makes clothes and stuff for my daughter and nephew, so this will be a cake walk for her).

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Not sure what you mean when you say you have "Dextrin" but if you have MaltoDextrin it will do the job.

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Yeppers, maltodextrin! So I also went out and purchased 2 yards of muslin....nice airy material! All the extra I have I can ask mom to make some hop sacks for me! Nice knowing someone who can sew! Hop sacks aren't exactly cheap considering I paid about $5 for 2 yards of material and a hop sack is about $4.??!
Bought cane sugar, purchased a food scale that goes up to a pound. (For now it will do what I need, just measuring out hops and such) Also found a 8qt. pot with lid for whatever I could possibly do with it. I don't think I can use this as my wort pot. 2 gallons would be right at the top of the lip....I did a quick 1 gallon of water in the pot test to see where 2 gallons would be!
And, conclusion, lmao, I am waiting for the muslin to wash and dry and then get the bags sewn!

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Alright, I am ready for the lovely details of this wonderful beastie! Probably going to do this up monday or tuesday!

My other question is for a biab recipe how much more water should I use? I read where an individual used 11 quarts for a 2 gallon batch of a different beer! Sound about right to anyone?

Thoughts,comments,theories and advice welcome as always!

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ebskinner1 wrote:

I paid about $5 for 2 yards of material and a hop sack is about $4.??!

$4 for 1 hopsack? I got ta be reading that wrong. I can get them for bout .50 cents for huge ones at my local store.

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I could swear thats what I saw! Maybe in all my excitement at being at that store I misread it!

EDIT: we were both right! Muslin hop sack- $0.44, nylon hop boiling sack-$4.39

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I think (ouch) that what I get are actually bigger grain bags. I cut them to lenth and usually get 2 to 3 bags, depending on the amount of hops I'm doing.

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ebskinner1 wrote:

I hope to get this all straight one day!

It's all fun learning and finding new things. I'm still learning, I'm in no ways an expert myself... LOL

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ebskinner1 wrote:

Alright, I am ready for the lovely details of this wonderful beastie! Probably going to do this up monday or tuesday!

My other question is for a biab recipe how much more water should I use? I read where an individual used 11 quarts for a 2 gallon batch of a different beer! Sound about right to anyone?

Thoughts,comments,theories and advice welcome as always!

11 or 12 quarts (3 gallons or there abouts) is about right if you are doing a traditional no-sparge BIAB and fit the end result in an LBK. But "about" is the trick.

If your going to do a sparge, you probably want to use less, because your going to add the sparge water to the boil and bring it up to your 3 gallons in the boil or whatever it is you are targeting.

What you are targeting depends on your boil length and boil off rate, do you know how much water boils off in your pot over 90 minutes?

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Strange you mention boil off rate, Mashani! Cause I was reading last night how to come up with that! And all sorts of nice informative tid-bits! And i'm going to say any information you have is welcome and any I can give back I am more than happy to do my best to get!

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So boil means churning waters? Correct? And from that point for 30 minutes. Cool as fast as possible,once cooled, take measurement.....and then calculate!? Doing all of this boiling now so there will be a few posts....Sorry!

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so I started out with 1 Gallon=2.6250
Boiled for 30 minutes,cooled and was at 1.7500
2.6250-1.7500x2=1.75
For 1/hr 1.75 Gal. is boiled off? Is that right? Is my temp to high? Should I be looking for something sooner and not churning or rolling water? Think I screwed up somewhere!Seems awful high to me!

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The maths don't lie.

If you are using a short/wide pot instead of a tall/narrow pot you will boil off faster. That's why the better brewing software has you enter your own equipment, so it can calcuate your starting water volume correctly, based on your pot and boil length.

Your boil doesn't need to be vigorous, as long as its bubbling away on the surface your good.

If your boil off is really that high, then you will probably want to do your BIAB, and sparge it and get more then that amount of water in your pot if you want to do a full volume boil. You want to end up at the amount you want to add to your LBK after it boils down.

If you can't put that much water in, it's OK, you can top up, but you want to try to keep it close if possible, otherwise software can't calculate your hop utilization as well.

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My pot is 10 3/4" wide x 9 3/4" tall and is 15 qt to lip of pot! I guess I didnt need to be so aggressive in my boil! I can shoot for 212 F with my thermometer level it off there and call it good!

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So I did some adjusting...I can get water moving nicely at 190F for 30 minutes which I believe gives me a boil off rate of .75 gallons an hour! And from what I read and calculated I will have an approximate grain absorption of .9....Oh yeah I forgot to throw in the 7.5 Lbs. of grain for the boil. There was a little more math in there and then I got lost!

So I was going to do all the grains at the full 90 minutes,that won't hurt anything will it? I figured it was the right thing to do!

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For BIAB, you would mash all the grains for 60 minutes (longer time up to maybe 75 minutes might be needed if you go for a low mash temp, you won't know for sure unless you do an iodine test), and then pull the grains and boil the WORT for 90 minutes. Not the grain.

You can take the grains you pulled, put them in another pot and "tea bag sparge" them if you wish, or in a collendar over another pot and pour sparge water over them, and then add the resulting wort to your boil to bring up the boil volume and gain more efficiency.

I hope that made sense... If you search on this board for BIAB you can find photos and descriptions of various peoples processes.

EDIT, FWIW, although in theory BIAB is supposed tradtitionally a no sparge method if you start with full volume of water, I've always got better efficiency going with less water and then doing a sparge to bring the volume up.

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Now for the wort boil....would I want to do the malto dextrin for the full 90 minute boil? And should I do a lower boil temp than 193F? And lastly where does the cane sugar fit into the boil or does it?

I was really hoping to do this earlier this week,due to matters out of my hands,I was not able to! So Saturday is the day!One way or another it will get done that day!! I would like to get the last little details of this beastie and then I will celebrate with the creation of this brew of mystery!

I did a little playing with the qbrew....From what I have input into it...ABV of 10.5%, well, maybe in a perfect world! Recipe gravity 1.109 and estimate FG 1.027! Again that's me playing with it and not having any real clue what else I should take into account or if what I have on there is accurate enough! Oh well, it's a learning experience and I am going to learn and read as I go!!

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ebskinner1 wrote:

I did a little playing with the qbrew....From what I have input into it...ABV of 10.5%, well, maybe in a perfect world! Recipe gravity 1.109 and estimate FG 1.027!

That's a pretty big beer... With an OG like that you need to make sure you use enough yeast...

Screwy has a calcuator that does a good job of approximating how many billion cells you need...

EDIT: Here's the link... Calculator is on the right, yeast count is at the bottom of it...

http://www.thescrewybrewer.com/p/brewing-tools-formulas.html

Looks like about 160 Billion Yeast Cells need to be served for a Mr. Beer sized batch...

That's two Wyeast Smack Packs...

(Well, certainly one and a half, but once it's opened, might as well use the whole 2 packs, that's what I would do).

:)

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Uh oh!!! I only have one thing of yeast! The white labs Belgian Golden Ale yeast (WLP 570)!! I read it's good to 12%,but, I have a sneaky suspicion it won't be enough from what your saying!

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ebskinner1 wrote:

Uh oh!!! I only have one thing of yeast! The white labs Belgian Golden Ale yeast (WLP 570)!! I read it's good to 12%,but, I have a sneaky suspicion it won't be enough from what your saying!

I don't know, I have never used the White Labs Yeast, not sure how many cells they claim per vial...

I know Screwy and others do though, maybe they can chime in...

:)

EDIT: Found this on the White Labs site for ya'

You could make a starter...

http://www.whitelabs.com/beer/homebrew_information.html

There are further directions on there but it starts with:

"Each vial of White Labs liquid yeast is designed to be used directly in 5 gallons, hence the term "pitchable yeast." Each vial is equivalent in cell count to a pint starter, or 75-150 billion cells. One vial will usually start fermentation in 5 gallons in 5-15 hours at 70°F. If a faster start is desired, or if initial gravity is over 1.070, we recommend a 1-2 pint starter be made. 

Homebrewers who enjoy yeast culturing: If a starter is made from a fresh vial, one vial can be added directly to a 2 liter starter, which in 2 days will grow to approximately 240 billion cells, to achieve a pitching rate in 5 gallons of of 1 million cells/ml/degree Plato (with a 12 Plato beer)."

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RE: The sugar.

Keep your sugar out of your intial wort. Just set it to the side and forgetaboutit.

Once your initial primary fermentation is settling down, say 4-5 days, then boil the sugar in a bit of water, cool it, pop your fermenter lid off, pour it in, and then put the lid right back on.

This will help keep your OG from being so high that your yeast get stressed out, which should make better beer and help you not get a stuck fermentation.

That said, I'd make a starter out of your yeast, or buy a second vial anyways.

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It looks like I can take a gamble and do my brew on time, hold off on the cane sugar for a couple of days then add it...or do up a yeast starter and and do it 2 days later and hope I did it right! Decisions decisions! What to do!? I have to ponder this!

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Wow! I am Green as hops! But to no avail,I brewed the beastie up! My SG was 1.060. Far from the predicted 1.109. But that kinda works in my favor in an odd kind of way! Made several mistakes and learned some lessons only hands on can teach! In a couple of days I will go ahead and add the sugar. I figure what the hell! I tried to take good notes...learning there as well!

First of all temps were all over the place! Nice right!? Learning!
Second, not only were they all over the place but then they got hot! I recorded the last 7 minutes at 173F....(Are you serious?)
Third,Muslin does not care to let liquid flow out of it like fluid should flow out of any fabric...especially when you have 7.5 lbs. of grain in it! (It burns alot!)Made a mess all over the floor and yet managed to have some sweet wort (Hot wort...hot,hot,hot!)! It was hot getting all the fluid I could out of the grains from emptying bag into a sterilized bucket and using a pot lid to squeeze it all out! Hot and sweet!Nice! Hope it all works out!

So my efficiency sucks! I probably screwed this up with temps! And having to add water to bring it up to a smidge over 2 gallons! I may very well be pleasantly surprised by all this and have a good brew! Worst case scenario, there is no worst case scenario! It was fun and I had a blast doing it! And I will do it again! I just have to get better at not making a mess!

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Did you leave the heat on when you mashed or something? You should generally heat the water to strike temp, turn off the heat, put the grains in, give it a stir, cover it up with insulation and walk away....

What did your mash temp start at? How much did it actually fluctuate? If your mash temps were high the whole time you will end up with a less fermentable wort. Hopefully there were in the 150s most of the time...

One note - the 1.109 included the sugar I think, which you didn't add, so you can not count the gravity from it as part of your projected SG. So your effective gravity will still be higher.

Why did you squeeze the bag into a sterilized bucket? You were going to need to boil that for 90 minutes anyways, and do all your hop additions - your not going to get any buggers in it that will live through a 90 minute boil no matter how hard you try...

Did you sparge, or just squeeze the bag?

EDIT: It just tasted sweet, you didn't notice any bitter "tea bag" flavors did you?

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I did leave the heat on. Water was at 157F,put in grains dropped to 143F. turned up heat (should have left well enough alone,lesson learned) to get water back up. I may have screwed it up,I set it to medium heat and left it,checked it through out and temps kept raising.when I did first set of hop additions I turned it down,30 minutes,cause temps were high at around 170F-171F.
I squeezed into sanitized bucket because when I pulled out bag it was juicing all over the stove and then I wanted to make sure I could actually get any of the wort out because the muslin was to fine. I wanted to ensure success of getting all the wort out I could so I used a sanitised bucket. I eventually had to just poor the contents of the bag into the bucket and used a pot lid to squeeze the wort out of the grains! Which worked fairly well considering it was hot as all get out.
So I did not sparge,and it tasted sweet...like tea with no bitterness! Shoot it might have tasted good to cool it down and drink it like that!
So I have this beastie of mystery in a 5 gallon bucket and shes bubbling in the airlock this morning! It smells good but I am going to keep an eye on it and a nose to it and see where this goes! If anything this should be a lesson for all of what not to do! I am aware I could have screwed this up royally and wont know until I crack it open in a couple of weeks or sooner! It was a good first time experience.Lessons learned and lessons to come! Maybe my first screw up of a BIAB! I had fun though!
And again muslin,really fine stuff!water ran through it fine,add grains and a thicker wort,not so great. Also,I know now when close to temps shut the bugger down and just keep an eye on it for temp drops and do slight adjustments from there,IF needed!
And I am already looking forward to the next brew I want to do. A Strawberry Ale! And I know for a fact I will do this belgian beastie again!
I am a student in learning the ways of brewing! I have so much to learn!

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Next time use some brewing software to calculate your strike temp, so you end up at the right temp after you add the grains.

Beyond that, I do not follow your process... you didn't actually boil the grains with the hops did you? Why were you worried about temps during the hop boil?

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I did not boil the hops with the grains! I had my water up to 157F,poured in grains, at which time the temp dropped to 143F! I can say,in hindsight,I could have allowed the water to warm up a couple of degrees,warm mash a couple of degrees and let it be. Checking temps every 15 minutes or so to make sure that huge changes in temps were not occurring and allowing for small warm ups if needed! My temps were warmer than I wanted! Or should have been!
I went into this knowing i was going to make mistakes and learning many lessons! That is overall what I wanted and to make a good brew! I may have failed at the brew,but,I did not fail in learning lessons and gaining knowledge! I can read alot and have a good idea of how things work,but,I like to get my hands dirty and learn that way!
I hope i didn't upset everyone with my newbie learning experience! I can hear alot of forhead smacking and a Gibbs smack to the back of the head!(NCIS thing) I have big shoulders so any coaching anyone has I welcome it!
And Mashai,I appreciate your questioning attitude!I am not good at note taking,I can tell you however, I did make a note of the last 7 minutes with temps at 173F! Too high I know! Oh and for the wort boil,that was a 90 minute boil with with maltodextrin added at beginning,hop additions at 30 minutes and 15 minutes till end of boil! At which point I pulled the hops!

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You should get beer, but it's possible it may have off flavors from the grains getting so hot. It's very hard to say what kind of fermentability you will get, you started off at a very highly fermentable temp, but then it rose to the point where you killed all the enzyme activity by the end. It depends really on how long it stayed in the 140s and 150s before it got too hot.

If it has an astringant "sucking on a tea bag" kind of bitterness that is unpleasant flavor when it's fermented, the high temps at the end is where it came from. But it might be ok, you said the wort tasted ok, so who knows.

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I have been holding my head in shame since! I think the best thing I could do at this point is quit worrying! Learn more and incorporate it into my next batch!

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