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under_the_radar

quick question on the new refills.

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I thought they were lower to. Possibly more accurate though, as I've heard people say MB ABV estimates were too high.

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"under_the_radar" post=262401 said:

just curious why these new all malt refills only 3.7? i guess it doesnt matter, im going to drink it anyway regardless.

It's going to be closer to 3.3% I think, unless they have some secret I am unaware of.

That doesn't mean it's bad beer, I brew lots of

It's just kind of spendy for a 3.3%ish beer.

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I think Mashani's point is that it is spendy as compared to other HME extracts, as well as DME/grains or AG options. If it was spendy, but comparable in price to the other options, it would be worth it for me. It's not worth it if I can easily find comparable options for a much lower price.

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Here's what i have decided, if the bundles are still on sale after I go back to work I'm gonna buy all 10 & add a pound of the proper dme to each batch, that gets me right around $20/ case of beer, not cheap, but ok for good beer.

That will give me 10 weeks worth of brewing which carries me into fall when I was planing on going to 5 gal batches since i will have more time.

Will get a chance to sample all the new beers at least.

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"pete rose haircut" post=262475 said:

Here's what i have decided, if the bundles are still on sale after I go back to work I'm gonna buy all 10 & add a pound of the proper dme to each batch, that gets me right around $20/ case of beer, not cheap, but ok for good beer.

That will give me 10 weeks worth of brewing which carries me into fall when I was planing on going to 5 gal batches since i will have more time.

Will get a chance to sample all the new beers at least.

But that's only if a pound of dme will not cause the brew to become severely underhopped...

That 850g is not 850g of hme... it's most likely a mix of hopped and unhopped extract. You may need 1/2oz of hops to balance out any further malt addition. In other words... the new MB mixes are way overpriced for what you get...

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No, I'm pretty sure that it's 850g of HME. I don't understand what you are saying here... If the can of extract has hops in it, it is by definition an HME.

Now, to your point of maybe needing more hops to offset a DME/LME addition, you may be correct. Adding more malt will add more sweetness and may need further hop additions. Now, as to whether the HME has enough hops to carry the addition, I suppose that will be for the brewer to gauge...

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"VanceFox" post=262478 said:

"pete rose haircut" post=262475 said:

Here's what i have decided, if the bundles are still on sale after I go back to work I'm gonna buy all 10 & add a pound of the proper dme to each batch, that gets me right around $20/ case of beer, not cheap, but ok for good beer.

That will give me 10 weeks worth of brewing which carries me into fall when I was planing on going to 5 gal batches since i will have more time.

Will get a chance to sample all the new beers at least.

But that's only if a pound of dme will not cause the brew to become severely underhopped...

That 850g is not 850g of hme... it's most likely a mix of hopped and unhopped extract. You may need 1/2oz of hops to balance out any further malt addition. In other words... the new MB mixes are way overpriced for what you get...

I should be ok if they are close in flavor to the old extracts, all of the lighter beers such as the pilsners & blonde ale have all been tasty but were a little hoppier than I like. I like my dark beers malty.

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FYI. Just based on the specs, it looks like the light colored extracts for the most part will be malt city if you add any malt... they are already almost too malty perhaps... Where the dark ones are plenty hoppy and the extra malt will make them more balanced.

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"mashani" post=262508 said:

FYI. Just based on the specs, it looks like the light colored extracts for the most part will be malt city if you add any malt... they are already almost too malty perhaps... Where the dark ones are plenty hoppy and the extra malt will make them more balanced.

Mashani~

I'm glad you noted that. You are right. With a base OG of 1.036 on the Canadian Blonde, a 13 IBU is roughly in the .35-ish BU:GU range. This would infdicate a very malty beer.

And although it lists a 13 IBU for "bitterness" I would tend to think that with an IBU that low, you're really only going to have taste and/or flavor hops. Not a true 60 minute boil bitterness. I think that even if you took a 2.6 AA Styrian Golding at 1.00 oz at 60 minute in 1 gallon of wort...you're going to get 20 IBUs.

I'm not saying that the hops are Styrian or anything else...just using that as the lowest AA hop I have seen. The point being, I would bet that the 13 IBU is coming from purely flavor and aroma hopping. If that's the case, you really need a bittering hop.

If we mark this at a 2.3 gallon batch (just saying this is a more likely size brewed than the flat 2gallons) and you get a 3.5-ish beer...most folks will add at least 1 LB DME (which would bring it up to the 5% ABV range. And if you do that...you absolutely NEED some bittering in there...or else :sick:

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If you are like me, you have a ton of booster. These new refills would be a great way to use them since they don't come with any. The additional malt would offset any expected cidery tastes that were common with the original refills since they had such an unproportional malt/adjunct ratio.

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"swenocha" post=262479 said:

No, I'm pretty sure that it's 850g of HME. I don't understand what you are saying here... If the can of extract has hops in it, it is by definition an HME.

Now, to your point of maybe needing more hops to offset a DME/LME addition, you may be correct. Adding more malt will add more sweetness and may need further hop additions. Now, as to whether the HME has enough hops to carry the addition, I suppose that will be for the brewer to gauge...

I've been wondering about this myself. I wrote down the SRM and IBU for each type of original HME just before the new standard refills were posted. Oddly, it seems that all the original types and sizes of single HME are still posted up for sale on the main site. The standard refills have the new size and mostly different names, making it a bit tougher to do a one-on-one comparison.

My way of thinking is that if a previous standard refill came with a 550 gm can of HME and the new standard refill comes with a 850 gm can of HME, then all we have to do is compare the SRM and IBU values for the two cans in order to compare apples to apples.

Take the Octoberfest, for instance. Old can had SRM of 9 and IBU of 23. New can has SRM of 10 and IBU of 21. To me, that means whatever was added to the original amount of HME has the net effect of adding 1 unit to SRM and actaully losing 2 units of IBU.

Now, since it's all in one can, and there is ME in the can and there is hops in the can, the can is technically all HME. But taken as what was in the original can and what was ADDED to it to make the new can, I'm saying that plain UME was added to the can.

I know that is an oversimplification, but it makes the point, I believe. If we were to purchase one original can of Octoberfest and add 10 oz of UME it, we would add the SRM and IBU of each product together to get the combined total. The values stated in the refill hold up when you "dilute" the can with enough water to fill the LBK. If you add booster, no change to these values. If you add UME, you add the two SRM values together, but IBU does not change. If you add HME, you add both SRM and IBU together for new combined value. That's my understanding of how it has always worked.

Taking into account that most of the names have changed and some are completely new, it's a little tricky to compare the old standard refills to the new ones. Now, oddly enough, some of them are very close to or even a tad lower than the originals in SRM and IBU, while in all fairness, a lot of them do indeed give us a bit more SRM and IBU in the new product.

I think that comparing these two values on any new standard refill to the values in either an original refill or a deluxe refill (which no longer exists) is the best way to compare price value. No perfect way, but this is best I can think of. I didn't write down the values of deluxe refills before they were removed, but maybe the wayback machine can help there. I love that thing!

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"Joechianti" post=262572 said:

"swenocha" post=262479 said:

No, I'm pretty sure that it's 850g of HME. I don't understand what you are saying here... If the can of extract has hops in it, it is by definition an HME.

Now, to your point of maybe needing more hops to offset a DME/LME addition, you may be correct. Adding more malt will add more sweetness and may need further hop additions. Now, as to whether the HME has enough hops to carry the addition, I suppose that will be for the brewer to gauge...

I've been wondering about this myself. I wrote down the SRM and IBU for each type of original HME just before the new standard refills were posted. Oddly, it seems that all the original types and sizes of single HME are still posted up for sale on the main site. The standard refills have the new size and mostly different names, making it a bit tougher to do a one-on-one comparison.

My way of thinking is that if a previous standard refill came with a 550 gm can of HME and the new standard refill comes with a 850 gm can of HME, then all we have to do is compare the SRM and IBU values for the two cans in order to compare apples to apples.

Take the Octoberfest, for instance. Old can had SRM of 9 and IBU of 23. New can has SRM of 10 and IBU of 21. To me, that means whatever was added to the original amount of HME has the net effect of adding 1 unit to SRM and actaully losing 2 units of IBU.

Now, since it's all in one can, and there is ME in the can and there is hops in the can, the can is technically all HME. But taken as what was in the original can and what was ADDED to it to make the new can, I'm saying that plain UME was added to the can.

I know that is an oversimplification, but it makes the point, I believe. If we were to purchase one original can of Octoberfest and add 10 oz of UME it, we would add the SRM and IBU of each product together to get the combined total. The values stated in the refill hold up when you "dilute" the can with enough water to fill the LBK. If you add booster, no change to these values. If you add UME, you add the two SRM values together, but IBU does not change. If you add HME, you add both SRM and IBU together for new combined value. That's my understanding of how it has always worked.

Taking into account that most of the names have changed and some are completely new, it's a little tricky to compare the old standard refills to the new ones. Now, oddly enough, some of them are very close to or even a tad lower than the originals in SRM and IBU, while in all fairness, a lot of them do indeed give us a bit more SRM and IBU in the new product.

I think that comparing these two values on any new standard refill to the values in either an original refill or a deluxe refill (which no longer exists) is the best way to compare price value. No perfect way, but this is best I can think of. I didn't write down the values of deluxe refills before they were removed, but maybe the wayback machine can help there. I love that thing!

JoeC: You lost me at "I've been wondering"...now you got me a wandering!!! :laugh:

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Yes, the whole can can be technically hme... But it's still most likely a mix of hme and ume. It's like taking a can of tomato sauce and adding another can of water. It's still tomato sauce but... It's just not as good.

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Would it make sense that if the OG is now lower, then the IBUs would also be a little lower to keep the balance in line?


Rick

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"rickbray66" post=262585 said:

Would it make sense that if the OG is now lower, then the IBUs would also be a little lower to keep the balance in line?

Rick


Sounds reasonable to me. That could explain the price increase.

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I am not really following the watered down analogy above. It could be just semantics though.

Prior to the new standard refills, it was one can of HME and one pouch of booster (sugar mixture in malt like ratios). All of the hop and malt characteristics coming from the can of HME, but the total fermentable level was brought up with the booster.

The new standard refill has all the hops and malt in one can now, no need to boost with more fermentables. This doesn't seem watered down in any way, but rather it accomplishes in a single can what many folks were trying to do by substituting booster with additional DME/LME/UME and a hop boil. Now that "stepping-up" of the standard kit is unnecessary which should lead to a more attractive standard refill kit for people just starting out with Mr. Beer.

If this is what is meant by in the previous posts by adding ume to hme or the tomato sauce analogy, then ok I can see what you are saying, I just wouldn't characterize what they have done as anything but a positive. The one thing I can say for sure about Mr. Beer kits is that Booster makes for an inferior beer and I am glad that it is being eliminated.

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"Joechianti" post=262572 said:

"swenocha" post=262479 said:

Now, since it's all in one can, and there is ME in the can and there is hops in the can, the can is technically all HME. But taken as what was in the original can and what was ADDED to it to make the new can, I'm saying that plain UME was added to the can.

I know that is an oversimplification, but it makes the point, I believe. If we were to purchase one original can of Octoberfest and add 10 oz of UME it, we would add the SRM and IBU of each product together to get the combined total.

So, you're saying that in effect the new standard refills are just the old deluxe refills (with a little less UME) now in one can.

Interesting.....

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Vance, respectfully, I still don't get your point. Any extract with hops in it is hme. If they mix malt extract with malt extract, it's still malt extract. If the new facility is making an hme, they are mashing grains and then doing a hop boil before condensing it into a syrup. I don't see a) why it would be advantageous for them to separately create additional ume mash to add to the hme, and B) what the issue would be if they did. Hme and ume are the exact same thing except the hop boil. Adding extract would not equate to adding water to soup. The malt extract is the good stuff, not filler. It would actually equate to adding tomato soup to the tomato soup.

Regardless, these are entirely new extracts from an entirely new recipe (likely a different malt and hop bill) from an entirely new facility. Based on what we are hearing from Mr.B, they really have no relation to the old ones.

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"Trumpetguy" post=262613 said:

So, you're saying that in effect the new standard refills are just the old deluxe refills (with a little less UME) now in one can.
Interesting.....


I suppose if the old deluxe refill at $17.99 had 550 grams of HME in one can and 550 grams of UME in another can (1100 grams total), but the new standard refill at $17.99 has 850 grams total of HME and UME combined in one can, then that statement would be very correct.

Perhaps you've hit on something. The new standard doesn't really just replace the old standard. It falls in between the old standard and the old deluxe. Now the old deluxe and the old standard are both gone, and the new in- between product bears the name of standard.

I think you hit the nail on the head.

It's all new and improved, for us.

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"Joechianti" post=262618 said:

It's all new and improved, for us.

+1 I definitely want to try them. There are so many beers yet to be made, I could be busy for decades.

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I'm brewing the American Ale & Patriot lager right now. My ongoing review is under basic recipes. As far as the cost goes, if you have sanitizer & yeast all you had to do was buy 1 can of HME & 1 can of UME for $16.00 (rounding up)
2.00 for dry yeast & 1.50 for an oz of hops & you got a 2.2 gallon batch for $20.00 add 1/2 pack of booster .75 & you get a nice brew. Now it's going to be 35.00 for just 2 cans. Granted the brew should be good, but that's too high for most Home Brewers IMHO. :cheers:

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"Joechianti" post=262618 said:


...if the old deluxe refill at $17.99 had 550 grams of HME in one can and 550 grams of UME in another can (1100 grams total), but the new standard refill at $17.99 has 850 grams total of HME and UME combined in one can, then ...


...I'd call that 'dumb sizing' (charging the same for less product).

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"onefatgerman" post=262752 said:

"Joechianti" post=262618 said:


...if the old deluxe refill at $17.99 had 550 grams of HME in one can and 550 grams of UME in another can (1100 grams total), but the new standard refill at $17.99 has 850 grams total of HME and UME combined in one can, then ...


...I'd call that 'dumb sizing' (charging the same for less product).

But the New newbies won't care because they won't know any better. IMHO, they are losing the regulars, the not-so-regulars, and the ones that do know better. T8r thinks the Aussies are committing suicide here but what the hell does this ol' phart know. I have ordered from MrB many a time since I started this homebrew hobby in January but am now only buying the bargain basement sites and utilizing my LHBS to keep my costs down and I am able to make better beer for less regardless if you agree with what I say or do. I seem to have alienated myself from some of the self-professed borg regular kingpins here but I speak from the heart. :evil:

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There has been lots of posting about the new HME changes. It causes stress for some people since things are different. I can't reply to all the different threads, so I re-posted my reply here in this thread:

I plan on trying some of the new standard refills, and getting that ABV up to around 5 % instead of 3.7%

If I know what hops are in the HME, I can try adding some DME and doing a hop boil with some of my hops.

If I can't add hops, I can double the HME and make the batch volume about 1.6 times as much. For Example if 1 can of the new HME makes 2 gallons, use 2 cans and make it into a 3.2 Gallon batch.
Until you have new UMEs to use, maybe I can help. I will be happy to report my results to the Borg, which has been a HUGE help to me.

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"T8r Salad" post=262755 said:

"onefatgerman" post=262752 said:

"Joechianti" post=262618 said:


...if the old deluxe refill at $17.99 had 550 grams of HME in one can and 550 grams of UME in another can (1100 grams total), but the new standard refill at $17.99 has 850 grams total of HME and UME combined in one can, then ...


...I'd call that 'dumb sizing' (charging the same for less product).

But the New newbies won't care because they won't know any better. IMHO, they are losing the regulars, the not-so-regulars, and the ones that do know better. T8r thinks the Aussies are committing suicide here but what the hell does this ol' phart know. I have ordered from MrB many a time since I started this homebrew hobby in January but am now only buying the bargain basement sites and utilizing my LHBS to keep my costs down and I am able to make better beer for less regardless if you agree with what I say or do. I seem to have alienated myself from some of the self-professed borg regular kingpins here but I speak from the heart. :evil:

Well, Tater, if you can't have the kingpins will you settle for this pinhead? I'll stick with you.

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"Joechianti" post=262763 said:

"T8r Salad" post=262755 said:

"onefatgerman" post=262752 said:

"Joechianti" post=262618 said:


...if the old deluxe refill at $17.99 had 550 grams of HME in one can and 550 grams of UME in another can (1100 grams total), but the new standard refill at $17.99 has 850 grams total of HME and UME combined in one can, then ...


...I'd call that 'dumb sizing' (charging the same for less product).

But the New newbies won't care because they won't know any better. IMHO, they are losing the regulars, the not-so-regulars, and the ones that do know better. T8r thinks the Aussies are committing suicide here but what the hell does this ol' phart know. I have ordered from MrB many a time since I started this homebrew hobby in January but am now only buying the bargain basement sites and utilizing my LHBS to keep my costs down and I am able to make better beer for less regardless if you agree with what I say or do. I seem to have alienated myself from some of the self-professed borg regular kingpins here but I speak from the heart. :evil:

Well, Tater, if you can't have the kingpins will you settle for this pinhead? I'll stick with you.

I'm with ya too. I've even bought bottles and caps and other accessories from MB. I'm not going to spend what they're asking for a beer kit that I still need to add to.

Make the kit 1000g of malt and 5g of yeast and I'd pay that price.

Not going to pay $18 for a significantly smaller can of the same product at ~$25

The acquisition was supposed to lower operating costs for MB...

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"VanceFox" post=262796 said:

"Joechianti" post=262763 said:

"T8r Salad" post=262755 said:

"onefatgerman" post=262752 said:

"Joechianti" post=262618 said:


...if the old deluxe refill at $17.99 had 550 grams of HME in one can and 550 grams of UME in another can (1100 grams total), but the new standard refill at $17.99 has 850 grams total of HME and UME combined in one can, then ...


...I'd call that 'dumb sizing' (charging the same for less product).

But the New newbies won't care because they won't know any better. IMHO, they are losing the regulars, the not-so-regulars, and the ones that do know better. T8r thinks the Aussies are committing suicide here but what the hell does this ol' phart know. I have ordered from MrB many a time since I started this homebrew hobby in January but am now only buying the bargain basement sites and utilizing my LHBS to keep my costs down and I am able to make better beer for less regardless if you agree with what I say or do. I seem to have alienated myself from some of the self-professed borg regular kingpins here but I speak from the heart. :evil:

Well, Tater, if you can't have the kingpins will you settle for this pinhead? I'll stick with you.

I'm with ya too. I've even bought bottles and caps and other accessories from MB. I'm not going to spend what they're asking for a beer kit that I still need to add to.

Make the kit 1000g of malt and 5g of yeast and I'd pay that price.

Not going to pay $18 for a significantly smaller can of the same product at ~$25

The acquisition was supposed to lower operating costs for MB...

Your mistaken, the merge was so Cooper could make heck of a lot more for the same product

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