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asnider

Sara's Honey Red

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I've been thinking about making a red ale for a while now, and I see that Mr. Beer uses the new Oktoberfest HME as the base for a few red ale recipes. I've also been thinking about making a honey brown for a while. I decided to combine the two and make a honey red instead.

I've used the Rose's Rambling Red as a basis for the recipe below. I've replaced the BrewMax soft pack with 1/2# of Amber DME and replaced the Booster with 3/4# of honey.

I'd originally had it at 1# of honey, which would have put it at 6% ABV (same as Rose's Rambling Red), but that had my malt-to-adjunct ratio a bit high (42% of sugars coming from the honey, if I did my math correctly), so I cut it down to 3/4# of honey.

Anyway, here's the recipe I put together in Qbrew. Thoughts?

And, what would the style be for this one? I've listed it as a Marzen, simply because I'm using the Oktoberfest as a base, but would it fit more into the categories of American Amber or Irish Red?

Sara's Honey Red
----------------
Brewer: Adam Snider
Style: Oktoberfest/Marzen
Batch: 2.00 gal Extract

Characteristics
---------------
Recipe Gravity: 1.058 OG
Recipe Bitterness: 20 IBU
Recipe Color: 11° SRM
Estimated FG: 1.015
Alcohol by Volume: 5.6%
Alcohol by Weight: 4.4%

Ingredients
-----------
Amber DME 0.50 lb, Extract, Extract
Honey 0.75 lb, Sugar, Other
Mr. Beer/Coopers Oktoberfest Lager 1.87 lb, Extract, Extract

Mr. Beer/Coopers Oktoberfest Lager 1.00 oz, Pellet, 5 minutes

Mr. Beer Dry Ale Yeast 1.00 unit, Yeast, Temperature

Range: 68°-76° F 5.0 GRAMS

Notes
-----
Recipe Notes:
Bring water to a boil, add honey. Flame out as soon as the honey is dissolved. Add DME and HME at flame out. Follow Mr. Beer directions from here.

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9D. Irish Red Ale

Flavor: Moderate caramel malt flavor and sweetness, occasionally with a buttered toast or toffee-like quality. Finishes with a light taste of roasted grain, which lends a characteristic dryness to the finish. Generally no flavor hops, although some examples may have a light English hop flavor. Medium-low hop bitterness, although light use of roasted grains may increase the perception of bitterness to the medium range. Medium-dry to dry finish. Clean and smooth (lager versions can be very smooth). No esters.

Overall Impression: An easy-drinking pint. Malt-focused with an initial sweetness and a roasted dryness in the finish.

Ingredients: May contain some adjuncts (corn, rice, or sugar), although excessive adjunct use will harm the character of the beer. Generally has a bit of roasted barley to provide reddish color and dry roasted finish. UK/Irish malts, hops, yeast.

--------------> I'd be curious about your Mr. Beer yeast.

Look at:

White Labs Irish Ale WLP004 [00004]

This is the yeast from one of the oldest stout producing breweries in the world. It produces a slight hint of diacetyl, balanced by a light fruitiness and slight dry crispness. It is great for Irish ales, stouts, porters, browns, reds, and a makes a very interesting pale ale.

Attenuation: 69-74%
Flocculation: Medium to High
Optimum Fermentation Temperature: 65-68 F (18-20 C)
Alcohol Tolerance: 8-12%

=======================

If I read you correctly...you're relying on solely the 21 IBUs from the HME

Oktoberfest Lager
Also referred to as Märzenbier, this malty, deep amber colored beer features a smooth body, toffee-like malt richness, and a full, biscuit like bouquet. Sample the celebrated beer of Munich’s world famous Oktoberfest.

ABV: 3.7%, SRM: 10, IBU: 21

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I don't think you're doing your adjunct math right, at least by weight.

First, you add up everything that is going into the brew that is malt or sugar.

1.87lbs for the can of HME, .5 lbs for the DME and 1lb for the honey (that you were going to use) = 3.37lbs. 1/3.37 = 30% from the honey, not 42%. Unless there is something that I'm not understanding.

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"RickBeer" post=352768 said:

I don't think you're doing your adjunct math right, at least by weight.

First, you add up everything that is going into the brew that is malt or sugar.

1.87lbs for the can of HME, .5 lbs for the DME and 1lb for the honey (that you were going to use) = 3.37lbs. 1/3.37 = 30% from the honey, not 42%. Unless there is something that I'm not understanding.


Isn't it supposed to be by ABV not weight?

Doesn't matter if it's 3.37Lbs...what matters is if the adjunct is over 30% (or whatever is the adjunct cutoff) of the ABV.

The honey could weight 45 Lbs...but if it only brings in 5% of the ABV, he'd be okay.

.....am I thinking of this right??

By my count, you'd have a 1.043 OG without the honey and a 1.061 OG with the honey (1Lb) and 1.056 with the honey (12 oz)

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Asnider, you are right on, by QBrew. Just be aware of two things.

1) Honey is recommended to be pastuerized.

2) If you are looking for a good honey flavor, you should add it about 1 week after you put the wort in the fermenter. The fermenting process will breakdown the honey and the aroma and flavor will travel out with the C02. Adding it later in the process will maintain more of the flavoring.

I would recommend doing a Google search on beer and honey. I'd post the links that I have except I am at work.

Good luck!

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So now that I've fully woken up, I'd like to revisit the math.

Assuming a 2 gal batch (vs. 2.13), I agree that QBrew shows a 6% ABV. 4.3% ABV is from the Oktoberfest and the DME. 1.7% is from the pound of honey. That means that the honey is contributing 1.7/6 = 28.3% of the ABV. So I don't see 42%. What am I doing wrong?

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You guys are right on about the % of ABV vs weights. I think a lot of nOObs get confused about that.

From the original post in "Malt to Adjunct Ratios:"

The FAQs say that you should get at least 2/3 of you ABV from malt and no more than 1/3 from adjuncts. Note that they don't say 2/3 of the weight or 2/3 of the volume, but 2/3 of the ABV.

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I saw Wings Fan responded...so I took a look again. Just curious to remember what I said and where we are going with this.

One thing I think I touched briefly...but want to get back to...the IBUs.

Right now, you're beer is anywhere in the 5% to 6% range. Closer to 6%. You only have 21 IBUs...that being from the Octoberfest HME. The addition of DME and honey is going to make this VERY malty sweet. As an additional comment...since the Octoberfest only has 21 IBUs...my suspect would be that it's either a very low AA hop at the bitterness boil or (more likely) hops in the flavor/aroma realm. What I'm getting to is that you really don't have a hop bitterness backbone to this beer. While I appreciate that an Irish or Marzen how a lower IBU ratio than say an Amber...based on what you're scribbling down as a recipe has a strong likelihood of being supersweet. And it is what it is. That ain't gonna condition out in time.

???Hey guys...am I right in my thoughts here???

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"Christ872" post=352785 said:

"RickBeer" post=352768 said:

I don't think you're doing your adjunct math right, at least by weight.

First, you add up everything that is going into the brew that is malt or sugar.

1.87lbs for the can of HME, .5 lbs for the DME and 1lb for the honey (that you were going to use) = 3.37lbs. 1/3.37 = 30% from the honey, not 42%. Unless there is something that I'm not understanding.


Isn't it supposed to be by ABV not weight?

Doesn't matter if it's 3.37Lbs...what matters is if the adjunct is over 30% (or whatever is the adjunct cutoff) of the ABV.

The honey could weight 45 Lbs...but if it only brings in 5% of the ABV, he'd be okay.

.....am I thinking of this right??

By my count, you'd have a 1.043 OG without the honey and a 1.061 OG with the honey (1Lb) and 1.056 with the honey (12 oz)

You are correct. And frankly I would not use more than 8oz honey in an LBK size batch.

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Guest System Admin

Chris, yes, you're right on the "very malty" thought. There's very little IBU for the ABV.

Marzens/Octoberfests use bittering hops but virtually no aroma or flavoring hops. It's supposed to be all about the malt but....there's a limit to that.

I think I'd add some type of noble hops for added bittering to offset this highly adjuncted brew. And Roger's right....4 to 8 oz is enough honey.

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Thanks for the tips and the math corrections!

I was dividing the honey by the malt, rather than by the total weight to get by 42%. Thanks for helping me figure out the issue.

So...it sounds like I should stick to no more than a 1/2# of honey (roughly 8oz), possibly less. I am fine with that. I was using the Rose's Rambling Red as a baseline, but I've modified it enough that I should probably forget about using that as a point of comparison for this recipe.

As for the sweetness...I want it to be a bit on the maltier side, but I don't want it to be cloying. If a hop boil is necessary, I am all for it. What hop variety (or varieties) would you recommend, recognizing that I'm aiming for something vaguely reminiscent of an Irish Red? How long should the boil be (or, rather, what IBU should I be aiming for, since the boil time will depend at least partially on the AA% of the hops I end up with)?

Also: dond427 recommends adding the honey a week into fermentation in order to retain more of the honey aroma and flavour. I assume that I don't want to stir up the wort after it's been fermenting for a week, so would I just dump in my liquid honey and let the yeast find it? No need to stir it into the wort?

(Sorry for all of the questions; this recipe will be my most significant deviation from a simple Mr. Beer refill/recipe so far, so I want to make sure I get it right.)

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"asnider" post=352834 said:

Thanks for the tips and the math corrections!
Also: dond427 recommends adding the honey a week into fermentation in order to retain more of the honey aroma and flavour. I assume that I don't want to stir up the wort after it's been fermenting for a week, so would I just dump in my liquid honey and let the yeast find it? No need to stir it into the wort?

(Sorry for all of the questions; this recipe will be my most significant deviation from a simple Mr. Beer refill/recipe so far, so I want to make sure I get it right.)

If you are pastuerizing it, water will be used that will thin it out. So, minimal, gentle stirring can be done. Remember no aeration is desired.

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"dond427" post=352845 said:

"asnider" post=352834 said:

Thanks for the tips and the math corrections!
Also: dond427 recommends adding the honey a week into fermentation in order to retain more of the honey aroma and flavour. I assume that I don't want to stir up the wort after it's been fermenting for a week, so would I just dump in my liquid honey and let the yeast find it? No need to stir it into the wort?

(Sorry for all of the questions; this recipe will be my most significant deviation from a simple Mr. Beer refill/recipe so far, so I want to make sure I get it right.)

If you are pastuerizing it, water will be used that will thin it out. So, minimal, gentle stirring can be done. Remember no aeration is desired.

I had planned on buying pasteurized honey. Most honey sold in Canada is already pasteurized.

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"asnider" post=352834 said:

As for the sweetness...I want it to be a bit on the maltier side, but I don't want it to be cloying. If a hop boil is necessary, I am all for it. What hop variety (or varieties) would you recommend, recognizing that I'm aiming for something vaguely reminiscent of an Irish Red? How long should the boil be (or, rather, what IBU should I be aiming for, since the boil time will depend at least partially on the AA% of the hops I end up with)?

Just went through about 20-25 Irish Red recipes. The hop selection is pretty tight.

Kent Goldings
Fuggles
Perle

and in two of them...Williamette

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"Christ872" post=352848 said:

"asnider" post=352834 said:

As for the sweetness...I want it to be a bit on the maltier side, but I don't want it to be cloying. If a hop boil is necessary, I am all for it. What hop variety (or varieties) would you recommend, recognizing that I'm aiming for something vaguely reminiscent of an Irish Red? How long should the boil be (or, rather, what IBU should I be aiming for, since the boil time will depend at least partially on the AA% of the hops I end up with)?

Just went through about 20-25 Irish Red recipes. The hop selection is pretty tight.

Kent Goldings
Fuggles
Perle

and in two of them...Williamette

I sort of suspected that Glodrings and Fuggles would be on the short list.

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OK, I've made some changes based on the advice in this thread. I've bumped it up to a 2.4-gallon batch, added more DME and added a 60 minute hop boil.

Here's the updated recipe. I've still got it listed as Mr. Beer yeast, but I'll switch that out for the White Labs Irish Ale WLP004 [00004] yeast if I can get my hands on some (my LHBS seems to have a really shitty selection of yeast, for some reason, so there is no guarantee).

Thoughts on the updated recipe?

Sara's Honey Red
----------------
Brewer: Adam Snider
Style: Irish Red Ale
Batch: 2.40 gal Extract

Characteristics
---------------
Recipe Gravity: 1.054 OG
Recipe Bitterness: 26 IBU
Recipe Color: 11° SRM
Estimated FG: 1.014
Alcohol by Volume: 5.2%
Alcohol by Weight: 4.1%

Ingredients
-----------
Amber DME 1.00 lb, Extract, Extract
Honey 0.50 lb, Sugar, Other
Mr. Beer/Coopers Oktoberfest Lager 1.87 lb, Extract, Extract

Fuggles (U.K.) - Aroma hop mild vegital woody and earthy aroma0.25 oz, Pellet, 60 minutes
Mr. Beer/Coopers Oktoberfest Lager 1.00 oz, Pellet, 5 minutes

Mr. Beer Dry Ale Yeast 1.00 unit, Yeast, Temperature

Range: 68°-76° F 5.0 GRAMS

Notes
-----
Recipe Notes:
Bring 1/2# DME to a boil in 4 cups of water. Add hops after hot break has ended and boil for 60 minutes.

Flame out and add remainder of DME and HME.

Add pasteurized honey after 1 week of fermentation.

Batch Notes:

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Ooooooooooh, I mistakenly thought you were doing a marzen, my bad.

Yes, for Irish Red definitely Fuggles or KG.

60 minute boil give you an IBU of 26....still on the low side but as I recall you don't really want the "in your face" hops profiles....or maybe it was your SWMBO.

Actually, 28 is the cap on IBU for an IR so I think you're right in there. My SWMBO loves anything I make that's not an IPA (which she does like with high IBU's) to come un under 30 IBU so you're on the right path.

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"Wings_Fan_In_KC" post=353021 said:

Ooooooooooh, I mistakenly thought you were doing a marzen, my bad.

Yes, for Irish Red definitely Fuggles or KG.

60 minute boil give you an IBU of 26....still on the low side but as I recall you don't really want the "in your face" hops profiles....or maybe it was your SWMBO.

Actually, 28 is the cap on IBU for an IR so I think you're right in there. My SWMBO loves anything I make that's not an IPA (which she does like with high IBU's) to come un under 30 IBU so you're on the right path.

I'd originally listed the recipe as a marzen, but only because I'm using the Oktoberfest HME as a base and wasn't sure what the recipe I was building would be more accurately classified as (I figured an Irish Red or an American Amber, but wasn't sure until a few people chimed in up above).

Personally, I enjoy beers with more IBUs and a bigger hop profile, but that's not what I'm aiming for with this one (partly because it's for SWMBO, hence the name, but also because it's just a maltier style). I might add a touch of flavouring hops to this, but I'm pretty happy with the recipe in its current form...I just hope the honey doesn't end up making it too sweet.

The only way to know for sure is to brew it and then adjust it in future versions if necessary.

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Dang.

I was gonna edit my typos but your quote post would have immortalized them anyway.

I'm so ashamed. :dry:

Good luck with this one, Adam. It really does look like a good brew.

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You happened to reply right when I was sitting in front of my computer.

I'll let you know how it turns out. The HME should arrive on my doorstep on Friday and I'll be picking up the DME and hops from the LHBS the same day, so I should get this brewed up on Friday or Saturday.

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The LHBS didn't have any Fuggle pellets today, so I picked up some Kent Goldings, instead. Here is the slightly modified recipe:

Sara's Honey Red
----------------
Brewer: Adam Snider
Style: Irish Red Ale
Batch: 2.40 gal Extract

Characteristics
---------------
Recipe Gravity: 1.054 OG
Recipe Bitterness: 28 IBU
Recipe Color: 11° SRM
Estimated FG: 1.014
Alcohol by Volume: 5.2%
Alcohol by Weight: 4.1%

Ingredients
-----------
Amber DME 1.00 lb, Extract, Extract
Honey 0.50 lb, Sugar, Other
Mr. Beer/Coopers Oktoberfest Lager 1.87 lb, Extract, Extract

Kent Goldings (U.K.) - Aroma and dry hop intensely resiny, candy-like, sweet, slightly floral and spicy 0.25 oz, Pellet, 50 minutes
Mr. Beer/Coopers Oktoberfest Lager1.00 oz, Pellet, 5 minutes

Mr. Beer Dry Ale Yeast 1.00 unit, Yeast, Temperature

Range: 68°-76° F 5.0 GRAMS

Notes
-----
Recipe Notes:
Bring 1/2# DME to a boil in 4 cups of water. Add hops after hot break has ended and boil for 60 minutes.

Flame out and add remainder of DME and HME.

Add pasteurized honey after 1 week of fermentation.

Batch Notes:

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Also, they didn't have any Irish Ale yeast, so I'm just going to stick with the Mr. Beer yeast for this batch. Hopefully, I'll be able to get a proper Irish Ale yeast in the future and can attempt this recipe again with a more appropriate yeast strain.

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Had a couple pints of this so far. It definitely didn't get good hop utilization, and it could use a bit more than the usual four weeks of conditioning time, but SWMBO likes it. Since I made it for her, I consider this a success.

I'll definitely use more water during my hop boil next time, though.

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