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dms formation... lid on? delayed chilling?

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im looking at a kit for a coffee stout. the recipe says some things that have me scratching my head.

-- At the end of the boil add 4 oz coarsely ground Coffee
Blend to the kettle once the heat is turned off. Allow the
coffee to steep for approximately 20 minutes before chilling.
Place the lid on the kettle during the steep.
6. Cool the wort. When coffee addition has steeped for 20
minutes, cool the wort to approximately 100° F as rapidly
as possible. Use a wort chiller, or put the kettle in an ice
bath in your sink

ok - i thought that if you covered hot wort, dms that is normally being given off in the vapor would condense and re-enter the wort...giving it a cream corn taste? also wouldnt the delay in chilling the wort allow off flavors to develop?

i was thinking a possible solution might be to steep the coffee in a pint or two of boiling water on the side 20 minutes before flame out. at flame out toss the coffee with beans into the wort and begin cooling.

wouldnt this have a more desireable outcome?

input is appreciated.

thanks

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It's my understanding (and I may be totally wrong) that DMS precursors are boiled off and carried away by open-pot boiling allowing the steam to escape. BOILING with the lid on allows condensation, which traps the DMS and allows it to drip back into the wort.

By covering after flame-out, the work is already done (here's where I'm sorta guessing). The DMS precursors have already been dispersed into the atmosphere, so any condensate that drips back into the wort won't contain them. If I'm mistaken about this, I certainly hope someone with a definite answer (hopefully backed by documentation) will chime in and set things straight.

As far as waiting to chill the wort, it's always been my understanding and practice that chilling as rapidly and ASAP after flame-out is optimum. But it may not make a huge difference.

I actually like your idea about preparing a coffee steep ahead of time and then just adding that at flame-out.

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I've been reading about "No-chill" brewing. In some places where water is short, brewers simply close up their kettles or other vessels and allow then to air cool. It seems to work well, even over more than a day.

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My understanding matches Dave's understanding. I had to cover my pot for a few minutes at a time to bring it to boiling before adding hops, and my understanding is that it's fine - as long as the cover is off during boiling.

By placing the lid on the pot after boiling, the temp stays high enough to prevent infection. Then, rapid cooling as always is recommended.

My one batch that got infected was when I did my first 5 gallon extract and was so focused on evenly dividing it that I forgot to cool it. Put both LBKs in the garage for two hours, ended up with one LBK infected and one not. Can't point to any other cause.

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I do "no chill" with all my 5 gallon batches.
What I will do is bring my pot in the house immediately after the boil, spray the top and some foil with Star San and wedge the top on and mash the foil around the edges so I don't have any gaps. Then I will turn the fan on it and usually within 12 hrs, it's cool enough to pitch the yeast!
Knock on my hard noggin, no infections and no DMS!
I believe Dave is right a bout the precursors boiling off before the end of the boil.

What I would worry about is the coffee and beans not being boiled. The steep ahead of the addition sounds like the perfect solution.
And for safety sake I would sanitize the lid too!

Just my take!

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i'm with dave and rick i heard dms only a problem while boiling. i see no problem with delayed chill as long as precautions are taken like teutonic terror says.

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I'm with Teutonic in doing the no chill. Here in Vegas our summer faucet temp in well over 80F most days so it doesn't chill very well. I use the no chill method just as he descibed, I put the lid on at flame out, crunch foil down around the lid to seal it then put it in my oven over night. Zero problems and don't taste any kind of differences.

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I've read that you only need to be concerned with DMS in pilsen malts when not boiling.

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"Jim Johnson" post=371720 said:

i'm with dave and rick i heard dms only a problem while boiling. i see no problem with delayed chill as long as precautions are taken like teutonic terror says.

+1

FDs statement is what I have always believed. DMS is boiled off during the boil. After flameout, cover.

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Guest System Admin

thanks all... i appreciate all the answers.

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Just to add a bit more information...and I'm a bit sick and cloudy headed today so forgive the lack of some details.

DMS is created at high temps and the boil is what drives it off. It's not actually created during the boil. It is possible to still get some DMS in your beer by covering at flameout as DMS will still be produced and then drop back in due to condensation from the lid. Depending on how quickly it chills it may get below that critical point and only trace amounts may get back into the beer.

There is a huge no-chill contingency out there that obviously doesn't have problems with this, though.

I'm not adding this to nit-pick like you see some people do on forums about syntax or grammar - just trying to add a little background and understanding.

If this doesn't make sense, it's the DayQuil talking ;)

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Kealia is right that you can still get DMS while the wort chills if it doesn't cool quickly enough, so covering it and steeping the coffee could produce some DMS, but its unlikely.

DMS is only produced at high temperatures and its my understanding that once the wort cools below about 180*F it is no longer a problem. Even while sitting in open air, the wort will cool below 180* in about an hour or two. Considering the small amount of wort we are talking about, its highly unlikely that any noticeable DMS would accumulate in the wort during that short a period.

As for the question at hand...20 minutes in a covered pot really should not be an issue at all.

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Kealia and Manosteel are very correct about DMS and that it will continue to produce after flameout. In fact it produces in wort that is above 175F or 80C and can only be driven out by a vigorous boil. With that in mind alot of people in the know like Jamil Zanisheff are now saying that you should boil for up to 100 minutes, especially when dealing with pilsner malts, to drive off as much of the DMS as possible.

From what I've read Pilsner malts are the ones you really need to be concerned about when it comes to DMS. In fact I've read that DMS is actually a desired characteristic of fine lagers. I read in Palmer's book that a certain amount of DMS is actually needed in lagers. He says if you take all the DMS out of a lager it will lack the charcters wanted in a lager.

I don't brew Pilsner's (with the exception of the one Mr. Beer Seasonal), so I guess that's why it's never really been an issue for me using the no chill method. I do think in the future I will try to chill my wort down to at least 165F to 170F before crunching on the aluminum foil and setting in the oven over night. My beer is too precious to me to take a chance on it being harmed!

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Makes sense, DMS is created by high heat, I always thought just during the boil. Interesting.... thanks.

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"k9dude" post=371853 said:

I don't brew Pilsner's (with the exception of the one Mr. Beer Seasonal), so I guess that's why it's never really been an issue for me using the no chill method. I do think in the future I will try to chill my wort down to at least 165F to 170F before crunching on the aluminum foil and setting in the oven over night. My beer is too precious to me to take a chance on it being harmed!


That's an interesting no chill method, k9...putting it in the oven.

My first AG beer is being brewed next weekend and I will be doing no chill in an HDPE water container. Its a 5 gallon container, that holds about 5.5g of liquid. I'll be transferring my wort from the kettle, via a built in spigot, directly to the container right after the boil finishes. Then putting the water cube in my fermentation closet at ~65*, expecting the wort to get well under the 175* range within an hour or so, eliminating the concern for excess DMS.

You would think that the oven would be so well insulated that it would take longer for the wort to cool while in there, wouldn't it? The heat from the pot wouldn't dissipate as quickly, right?

Just curious to get the thoughts of someone that has been doing it for a while.

Also, do you mind sharing if you do RWS (Real Wort Starters) for your beers? This, to me, seems to be one of the bigger benefits to the no chill method. Using a sample of the actual wort for a 24 hour starter while it chills would seem to be an ideal way to make a starter.

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"manosteel9423" post=371883 said:

"k9dude" post=371853 said:

I don't brew Pilsner's (with the exception of the one Mr. Beer Seasonal), so I guess that's why it's never really been an issue for me using the no chill method. I do think in the future I will try to chill my wort down to at least 165F to 170F before crunching on the aluminum foil and setting in the oven over night. My beer is too precious to me to take a chance on it being harmed!


That's an interesting no chill method, k9...putting it in the oven.

My first AG beer is being brewed next weekend and I will be doing no chill in an HDPE water container. Its a 5 gallon container, that holds about 5.5g of liquid. I'll be transferring my wort from the kettle, via a built in spigot, directly to the container right after the boil finishes. Then putting the water cube in my fermentation closet at ~65*, expecting the wort to get well under the 175* range within an hour or so, eliminating the concern for excess DMS.

You would think that the oven would be so well insulated that it would take longer for the wort to cool while in there, wouldn't it? The heat from the pot wouldn't dissipate as quickly, right?

Just curious to get the thoughts of someone that has been doing it for a while.

Also, do you mind sharing if you do RWS (Real Wort Starters) for your beers? This, to me, seems to be one of the bigger benefits to the no chill method. Using a sample of the actual wort for a 24 hour starter while it chills would seem to be an ideal way to make a starter.

I haven't done a RWS yet but have thought about doing so in the future. One of the main reasons I started doing no chill was time. I was finding it took at least 1 hr and 10 to 15 lbs of ice to chill the wort down to pitching temps. This would make a 4 hour brew day go 5 to 6 hours long. I know I could get the immersible pump and coil chiller ect and get the whole thing done in 15 to 20 min, but I just don't have the money for that! I would rather spend my money on other things (so many hobbies I have!! :laugh: ). So now I do the everything, including washing the fermenter (I put it in a big rubber maid container), then I put the pot in the oven. I do leave the door cracked open. Then the next day I spray down the fermenter and my auto siphon with sanitizer and transfer. aerate and pitch the yeast. What would have taken me 1 to 1/2 hours the day before only takes about 15 minutes!

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Thanks for that info, k9.

I have been researching AG and specifically no chill for quite a while and I have finally gathered all of the equipment I need to make the plunge. Its good to know that there are some people here on the Borg that are also using the method...makes me feel a bit better about how it will turn out for me.

For me, the decision wasn't really about the money, because I could make a wort chiller for about $25 and the water cube cost me about $15, so not a big difference (of course the cost of water is an issue as well, but not something I'm taking into account here). The big deciding factor for me was the time, effort and the ability to do a RWS...I just think its better to use the actual wort for the starter.

I figure I will save myself about an our on brew day, have a real wort starter ready to pitch within 24 hours, aerate the wort as I pour it from the cube to the fermenter and should be able to leave the majority of the kettle trub behind in the cube, clearing the beer better than you can with a quick cold break with a chiller.

As long as I follow sound sanitation procedures, I don't see the downside.

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