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SiriusDG

Carb, Head space, and Hard bottles

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Okay, up until now, I have been generally a believer in the theory that CO2 is created in the liquid, and finds it's way into the headspace, and the pressure between the two naturally equalizes, so when the bottle gets hard, carbing is complete.

My entire sense of the universe just shifted, thanx to serendipity.

Do this experiment for yourself. Buy a soda, in a plastic bottle. Drink 4 or 5 good swallows. Now screw the cap back on. Feel the bottle...nice and squishy, right?

Now shake that sucker up.

Feel the bottle now. Rock hard. Hmmm. The volume of what was in the bottle did not change...meaning, there is no yeast in there CREATING CO2 that did not exist before, like when we carb. I did not change the volume of the bottle. I did not change the temperature. But the pressure, ergo the "Feels Hard", of the bottle changed dramatically. And the kicker is, my soda has one helluva lot LESS carb now than it did a minute ago. And while I have not tested this part scientifically yet, what I think I generally know about soda tells me that the carb that just left my soda will never come back, no matter how long I let it sit.

I am not really sure where this leaves me except with a nagging sense that something is not the way I thought it was, and that the feel of a plastic bottle is not necessarily a good indicator of the level of carbonation of the fluid inside. Generally speaking, all other things being equal, yes, but it seems the correlation can be easily broken, and therefore is not very reliable.

Anyone care to chime in on this?

David

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SiriusDG wrote:

Okay, up until now, I have been generally a believer in the theory that CO2 is created in the liquid, and finds it's way into the headspace, and the pressure between the two naturally equalizes, so when the bottle gets hard, carbing is complete.

My entire sense of the universe just shifted, thanx to serendipity.

Do this experiment for yourself. Buy a soda, in a plastic bottle. Drink 4 or 5 good swallows. Now screw the cap back on. Feel the bottle...nice and squishy, right?

Now shake that sucker up.

Feel the bottle now. Rock hard. Hmmm. The volume of what was in the bottle did not change...meaning, there is no yeast in there CREATING CO2 that did not exist before, like when we carb. I did not change the volume of the bottle. I did not change the temperature. But the pressure, ergo the "Feels Hard", of the bottle changed dramatically. And the kicker is, my soda has one helluva lot LESS carb now than it did a minute ago. And while I have not tested this part scientifically yet, what I think I generally know about soda tells me that the carb that just left my soda will never come back, no matter how long I let it sit.

I am not really sure where this leaves me except with a nagging sense that something is not the way I thought it was, and that the feel of a plastic bottle is not necessarily a good indicator of the level of carbonation of the fluid inside. Generally speaking, all other things being equal, yes, but it seems the correlation can be easily broken, and therefore is not very reliable.

Anyone care to chime in on this?

David

I don't think anyone ever said (I'm pretty sure I never did) that the feel of the bottle was an accurate indication of the level of carb. What it tells ME is that the carb is happening. I have known since my first experiment, for instance, that just because the bottle was hard did NOT mean that carbonation was complete. They get hard until they can get no harder and the carbonation process continues. I don't know what your experiment proves but I don't think it's all related to carbonation or lack thereof as you have also introduced quite a bit of fresh air into the mix before you agitate it. You are not only agitating liquid you are agitating molecules which causes them to move faster and to expand. With the air you have also added new molecules for the carb to nucleate on an expand. If you allow that bottle to sit a few minutes it should soften again I believe because it has not been so much reexpanded by fresh carbonation but by the energy you imparted. But think about this. When you carb a clear bottle do you see bubbles rising? I don't. This tells me that the carbonation is happening all through the liquid and the pressure produced is equal.

And if you believe all that comes from a science background good luck in your next science exam....

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Sham Addams wrote:

Of course I completely agree with SiriusDG and mcgrewc but...

WOW!

I admit to being amazed by the hobby of homebrewing on many levels and this is yet another example.

At least you're thoughtful and inquisitive. All I can think of is if I can make Pepsi Beer. Shake the bottle, let it go flat, add yeast, let ferment, add more sugar to put some carb back in. Maybe add some hops during the primary? Cascades?

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rniles wrote:

Sham Addams wrote:

Of course I completely agree with SiriusDG and mcgrewc but...

WOW!

I admit to being amazed by the hobby of homebrewing on many levels and this is yet another example.

At least you're thoughtful and inquisitive. All I can think of is if I can make Pepsi Beer. Shake the bottle, let it go flat, add yeast, let ferment, add more sugar to put some carb back in. Maybe add some hops during the primary? Cascades?

I made dragon flower vitamin water hooch.
I used a recipe I found over at MrBeerFans.com.

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There is a cool video on youtube of a guy making prison wine with cranberry juice cocktail. He added yeast straight to the juice container and then drilled a hole in the lid for an airlock.

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crazybrody wrote:

There is a cool video on youtube of a guy making prison wine with cranberry juice cocktail. He added yeast straight to the juice container and then drilled a hole in the lid for an airlock.

Isn't it ironic that we are so careful with sanitation, ingredients, and procedure and yet others are not.

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I have mostly bottled in plastic bottles, without being able to always finish a full liter bottle at one time. I will recap my liter, replace it in the fridge and come back a day or two later. The bottle always seems to be hard, plenty of "fizz" and a nice head follows. Science? I don't know, good beer? YES. :P
Drink and be happy!
:cheers:

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rniles wrote:

Gotta believe in magic ...or, this web page has a decent explanation...

http://www.wonderquest.com/spewing-soda-can.htm

Thanks for the link rniles,

While I was reading it I was also listening to a recording of the history channel's "Universe". They are talking about "parallel universes" being bubbles.

Then it hit me - God popped a homebrew & our universe is one of the bubbles :woohoo:

I think I should finish my beer & go to bed -- thanks again for the link, I'll re-read it when I'm closer to sober ;)

Dan

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rniles wrote:

Gotta believe in magic ...or, this web page has a decent explanation...

http://www.wonderquest.com/spewing-soda-can.htm

Hmmm. He's saying that the bubbles nucleate on the particles. Pretty much what I said. But in this scenario the bottle has not been opened and is still at two pressures whereas in the previous scenario it was at normal pressure after being opened and drunk from...

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SiriusDG wrote:

Okay, up until now, I have been generally a believer in the theory that CO2 is created in the liquid, and finds it's way into the headspace, and the pressure between the two naturally equalizes, so when the bottle gets hard, carbing is complete.

My entire sense of the universe just shifted, thanx to serendipity.

Do this experiment for yourself. Buy a soda, in a plastic bottle. Drink 4 or 5 good swallows. Now screw the cap back on. Feel the bottle...nice and squishy, right?

Now shake that sucker up.

Feel the bottle now. Rock hard. Hmmm. The volume of what was in the bottle did not change...meaning, there is no yeast in there CREATING CO2 that did not exist before, like when we carb. I did not change the volume of the bottle. I did not change the temperature. But the pressure, ergo the "Feels Hard", of the bottle changed dramatically. And the kicker is, my soda has one helluva lot LESS carb now than it did a minute ago. And while I have not tested this part scientifically yet, what I think I generally know about soda tells me that the carb that just left my soda will never come back, no matter how long I let it sit.

I am not really sure where this leaves me except with a nagging sense that something is not the way I thought it was, and that the feel of a plastic bottle is not necessarily a good indicator of the level of carbonation of the fluid inside. Generally speaking, all other things being equal, yes, but it seems the correlation can be easily broken, and therefore is not very reliable.

Anyone care to chime in on this?

Sirus, I bottled my Octoberfest Monday in plastic soda pop bottles. The last bottle got only 1/2 filled. That one is already rock hard while the others are still soft. Does this tell us anything? Maybe air space carbs faster or easier? Any theories?

David

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norman1 wrote:

SiriusDG wrote:

Okay, up until now, I have been generally a believer in the theory that CO2 is created in the liquid, and finds it's way into the headspace, and the pressure between the two naturally equalizes, so when the bottle gets hard, carbing is complete.

My entire sense of the universe just shifted, thanx to serendipity.

Do this experiment for yourself. Buy a soda, in a plastic bottle. Drink 4 or 5 good swallows. Now screw the cap back on. Feel the bottle...nice and squishy, right?

Now shake that sucker up.

Feel the bottle now. Rock hard. Hmmm. The volume of what was in the bottle did not change...meaning, there is no yeast in there CREATING CO2 that did not exist before, like when we carb. I did not change the volume of the bottle. I did not change the temperature. But the pressure, ergo the "Feels Hard", of the bottle changed dramatically. And the kicker is, my soda has one helluva lot LESS carb now than it did a minute ago. And while I have not tested this part scientifically yet, what I think I generally know about soda tells me that the carb that just left my soda will never come back, no matter how long I let it sit.

I am not really sure where this leaves me except with a nagging sense that something is not the way I thought it was, and that the feel of a plastic bottle is not necessarily a good indicator of the level of carbonation of the fluid inside. Generally speaking, all other things being equal, yes, but it seems the correlation can be easily broken, and therefore is not very reliable.

Anyone care to chime in on this?

Sirus, I bottled my Octoberfest Monday in plastic soda pop bottles. The last bottle got only 1/2 filled. That one is already rock hard while the others are still soft. Does this tell us anything? Maybe air space carbs faster or easier? Any theories?

David

My theory is that a gas can be compressed much more readily than a liquid. There for the square of wonder will always fall pb&j side down.

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