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Wasson65

Krankheit Bier - (was Out of date HME and botulism)

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Had a can of West Coast Pale Ale that expired in Sept 2009.  The can had a barely noticeable bow to the top and bottom.  Thought about throwing it out.  Decided to brew it up and see what happens.

Piercing the lid produced a tiny 'psst'.  Opened it up and it smelled normal.  The color was very dark, which I understand is normal as HME ages in a can.

Did some reading up on botulism and this is what I found:

Botulism bacteria are almost omnipresent in dirt and plants. 

Almost all botulism cases are from home-canned food eaten without any further cooking.  Home pressure cookers will get to about 240F, which is just at the bottom of the range for kiling this bacteria.  Anything in a tin can is done at 250F, which is plenty to kill the bacteria almost in totality.  The bacteria isn't what actually makes you sick, it's toxins that the bacteria give off from their metabolism, and the bacteria really only give off the toxins in an anaerobic environment.  The toxins are easily boiled off well below the boiling point of water.

Once beer has an alcohol content, it kills the bacteria.

What this means in my mind is that even if the can did contain the bacteria, the boiling would have driven off the existing toxins, and the fermenting process is aeroebic at the beginning, so the bacteria won't be producing toxins, and by the time the fermenting goes anaerobic, the alcohol content is coming up and kills the bacteria.

So I boiled my DME, threw in about a cup of grape-nuts, added the HME, scorched some of it on the bottom of the pan (didn't remove the heat - duh), boiled that for 30 minutes or so, then added some Cascade hops to the last 10 minutes, added to LBK, shook it for about 1.5 minutes.  The scorched smell was pretty strong, and I wasn't sure how it would come out.

Pitched 7g total of Mr. Beer stock yeast at around 72F, and it's got a nice layer of krausen on top, about 1/4 inch across the entire surface.  Tasted a little bit after 24 hours in the fermenter, and suprisingly the scorched smell is not at all prevelant and the flavor isn't bad.

I'll let you know if I end up in the ER....

Will see how it goes....

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I have brewed some of the old Mr. Beer mixes that were 2 years expired, but none that old. They turned out fine.

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lol...another grape nutter!   when I do meads or if I'm concerned about my yeast being oldish I toss in some GN into a pint or 2 of water , bring just to boil then let it steep.. then strain and dump in.  for some reason the yeast go nuts.  . . even moreso if raisins are added to it too. another thing I do with meads is crush up a centrum vitamin in the water..  I figure it's good for me it must be good for them too. so far they seem to like it.  another treat is to take old fromunda yeast and boil it for 10 mins... and toss that in. yeast are cannibals.  sure sure, I could BUY yeast food or nutrient but where's the fun in that?


.


now as for botulism, ive been a hypochondriac since I was old enough to know what dirt was and poo and germs. example:  I was convinced I had every disease on the planet so my mom thought, being a former nurse , that for xmas it would be fun if she would give me an encyclopedia of diseases and their symptoms. my dad screamed 'ARE YOU NUTS???!!!' and promptly forbade it. so I'm a bit leery of using any tin that even slightly shows bowing. cooked to oblivion or not I don't see the benefit of taking even the slightest risk of ending up in a hospital.


hopefully you'll be fine.

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The "barely noticeable bow" would have me tossing the can in the trash.  Age isn't the issue - but bowing would be to me.

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It's been in the fermenter for about 4 days now, and tried a bit today - tasty stuff, not for a hop head but I'm looking forward to this batch!  The trub is just up around the spigot, so apparently the yeast had a great time, although some of it is undoubtedly the grape nuts which got dumped straight into the boil.

I have no idea what style this beer is, but if it carbonates up, I think I will enjoy it immensely. Now, whose got out-of-date WCPA????   I'm buying...

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I bottled this one about 2 weeks ago, after 2 weeks in the fermenter.

Broke one out last night and this was the happy result:

de951fc1-5475-4605-9c4d-5b0b9594f039.JPG

This was with no cold conditioning at all, room temperature, baby!!!

The head as you can see was quite pretty, the carbonation was fine.  Hop profile was quite low as the HME was 5 years out of date.  Mouthfeel was very smooth, not quite creamy but just very very smooth.  No 'watery' accusations could be made for it.  Aroma was almost non-existant.  Flavor was  easy-going, very quaffable, and probably a bit simpler than I expected.  Just a hint of carbonation towards the back of the mouth.

Color was a rich deep medium brown, definitely not black, with some reddish hints in it.  While not crystal clear, it wasn't notably hazy, again, suprising considering I boiled the grape nuts and they went into the fermenter with the wort, and created a good inch of trub by the time the yeast's party was over.

What I did note is that it was an enjoyable, easy-drinking beer, which given it's 70 degree temperature was remarkable to me.

The head stuck around for about half of the glass, some light lacing.  I've now tasted my first 4 brews, and this one (the fourth), is the best by a decent margin.

Anybody with an old case of West Coast Pale Ale?  Older the better!

I've dubbed this style 'Krankheit Bier'... 

NOTE FOR ALL:  I AM NOT A DOCTOR.  YOU PROBABLY SHOULDN'T DO WHAT I DID.

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Anybody with an old case of West Coast Pale Ale?  Older the better!

   We aren't allowed to discuss it, but that HME is available from another company.  I'd PM you the info, but this site no longer has that ability.  I'd recommend you visit the beer borg social and ask over there, but that could get me in trouble even mentioning it...

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I take pride in making my beer and see no reason for any homebrewer to look forward to making a subpar Natty Ice alternative brew using really old HME or LME. Enjoy yourselves!?

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KLR said:I take pride in making my beer and see no reason for any homebrewer to look forward to making a subpar Natty Ice alternative brew using really old HME or LME. Enjoy yourselves!?

dude, relax, it was sitting around and I mixed it up, and it didn't turn out bad. Had a couple more over the weekend. It was an experiment, just something to do.

since you mentioned it, yes, I did enjoy making it, and have enjoyed drinking it, natty as it was.  At the end of the day, it's all yeast pee anyway, so isn't it all natty to begin with?

Not trying to pick any fight here, and I'm certainly not holding it up as a preferred pattern, it was just some beer.

cheers y'all!

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I'm relaxed DUDE. keep in mind your the one that wasted your time not me. I,ve got some expired milk any takers?

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KLR said:I'm relaxed DUDE. keep in mind your the one that wasted your time not me. I,ve got some expired milk any takers?

Your persistent concern for the effective use of my free time, while touching, simply isn't relevant to me.  For me it's just a hobby.  My ego isn't wrapped up in how valid you find my particular pursuits within that hobby.  So run along home, or hang around, it really isn't much to me one way or the other.    Preferably, you could talk about some beer you've made and how awesome it is....  or not, your choice.

NOTE: ACTUAL HOMEBREW REALTED CONTENT FOLLOWS:

FWIW, I should have boiled some hops with it, the beer came out on the sweet side.

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Wow what a great comeback ...  3 weeks later .I guess you ate your Wheaties this morning. Sweet? More like cat urine. Concern myself with your time? I'm confused, you posted all the original nonsense for a response and when you received a truthful , realistic one it hurt. Oh well. enjoy that stale beer tough guy!

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KLR – You’re right, it was a GREAT comeback. Maybe it took 3 weeks because he has a life and doesn’t hang around waiting to jump on a post. And calling him a tough guy?? That’s akin to the sun calling the candle bright. You’re the one antagonizing, not him.

In short - QUIT BEING A DOUCHE. 

 

 

Wasson65 – Brew on and brew WHAT YOU WANT AND ENJOY!!! Don’t let the fascists dictate your tastes.

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Becoming a good brewer involves experimentation as well.  There are many - myself included - who purposely make mistakes such as brewing with the temperature on the high side, using "wrong" ingredients and techniques, etc.  One nice thing about the LBKs is you can split a 5g batch with half being done the "right" way and the other the "wrong" way and see what the impact is.  Ive come up with some pretty interesting hybrids that way.  If it aint BRILLIANT it is usually at least drinkable as a work outside beer or a marinade.

Shoot, not sure if it was on here or another forum, but one person purposely brewed up a batch ignoring every guideline such as sanitation just to see what would happen and ended up proving that brewing can be very forgiving.

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It's actually possible to learn more by making mistakes and thinking through how the mistakes affect the outcome, than by always following a textbook procedure while not fundamentally understanding the reasons for the process.  My own experimentation results range from "OK, I'll never do that again" to brews that other experienced brewers find interesting and innovative.  I have 1st & 2nd place competition results to show for it. 

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You tuned in a little late buds if you paid attention to the original post by Wasson he brewed using expired extract, so expired the lid was starting to cave in. A positive attitude ? Thanks Dr. Phil I didn't know that I really should have supported Wasson and his clever idea to use really expired HME. All of you guys rushing to the aid of a homebrewer who made such a smart and brave decision is so wonderful. By the  way are there any grown men on this community forum? A douche? Experimenting with well overdue HME? What he did was ridiculous! Did any of you guys bother to look at that or do you approach your beer making the same way?

 

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We did read the original post and all the ones since.  Wasson is still with us, had a learning experience and will be a better brewer as a result, and enjoyed his beer.  Others here have our learning experiences and learned from them, and some of us do have quite a bit of successful experience.  Enough argument already!

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That's fine. No argument here. Keep on brewin'

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KLR said:... Keep on brewin'

That's why I'm here...  "Hey, I made beer!"

Let's all remember our motto: RDWHAHB! 

Gonna mix up some more American Porter tonight and see how my Southern Blonde is coming along - Pictures and new thread coming tonight.

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