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Vakko

All grain with UME?

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There's a ton of all-grain recipes and I hate the weighing, the roasting, the seeping, etc etc etc.

 

Can I just boil my hops at the correct intervals and then add a UME/DME that closely resembles what the malt combination should be and get basically the same beer?

 

I understand that I would be using the color dark blue instead deep southern ocean blue, but it should be close right?

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BTW you boil the hops IN the UME

so when it says boil saaz at 60 minutes... that's IN the UME the whole time and not before you add you unhopped malts?

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UME and water you need a gravity of .030 to get hop conversion. I only used half the UME at the start added the rest @ 10 min.. Also you can use more hops @ 20 min and get the same IBUs but a stronger hop flavor. 

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You got it...  Boil water, add UME (either DME or LME), add hops and start timer.  Hop schedules work in this fashion...  when they say drop hops at 60, 20, and 5, that means essentially if you start a countdown timer, add the hops with 60, 20, and 5 minutes remaining.  Then, after the hop boil, remove the hops, add any HME that you are using (if any), and cool the wort before adding to fermenter.

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BTW and FYI it's going to be dark. won't effect the flavor any just cooking UMEs long times makes them dark

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Awesome! Thanks a lot guys.  Been reading some advanced brew stuff and came across a section about extract brewing.  Opened my mind up to all sorts of possibilities were you can combine the ease of extracts but still retain some customization of hop selection and boil times.

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New question:

 

Found some conversion charts for grain to UME.  Example: 4.5lbs of grain is 3.375lbs of liquid.  Does this mean I need to buy 7 bags weighing 0.55lbs of LME to do this recipe?

If so, seems like this is a terrible path to go down price wise.

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I'm unclear what you're doing, so let me mention a few things and you can grab (or not) onto whichever explains things for you.

 

First, for everyone's benefit, HME is hopped malt extract.  That's what a Mr. Beer can is.  Add water and you've got beer.

 

Some people want to add grains to the mix.  They do this by steeping the grains in 155 degree water for 20 minutes.  Then, the grain bag is removed, the resulting wort is boiled, hops may or may not be added, and the can of HME is combined with the boiled wort.  Add more water and you've got beer.

 

There is another option that doesn't involve a Mr. Beer HME, and since this is their forum, let me just touch lightly on it.  That option involves steeping grains, adding LME (liquid malt extract) or DME (dried malt extract), boiling, adding hops, and then cooling the mixture.  Add more water and you've got beer.  This process is called "extract brewing".  

 

In extract brewing, a typical 5 gallon recipe uses somewhere between 6 and 7.x pounds of LME (or the equivalent amount of DME).  Some recipes will list both LME and DME because cans of LME that are sold are 3.3 pounds and so to get to 7.x pounds you would have to buy both.  If you have the ability to buy either in bulk, then you can use just one (I buy as much, or as little, LME as I want, so I've never used DME).

 

Now, if the question is - how much LME is needed to brew X gallons of beer, let's use the above 6 pounds.  If you need 6 pounds for 5 gallons then you need 3 pounds for 2.5 gallons or 2.6 pounds for 2.13 gallons.  So yes, if you're buying Mr. Beer LME pouches and planning on brewing a 2.13 batch of beer, you may need to buy 5 bags.  In your case guess that was 7 bags.

 

No one does this.  People either steep some grains to add them to a Mr. Beer batch, or they brew extract batches without using Mr. Beer products at all.  Paying the equivalent of $6.35 for a pound of LME is crazy if you're planning on making an extract recipe (I pay $2.50 and my LHBS ships for $3 a pound plus shipping).  

 

Also, all grain means all grain.  It doesn't mean you use LME.  You probably want to find extract recipes with grain steeps and go with those.  That's exactly what I do.  Today I brewed the White House Honey Porter, tomorrow I will bottle a red, and later this week brew the White House Honey Ale.  All are extract recipes with grain steeps.

 

Hopefully this helps.  If not, ask away.

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Great info, Rick!

I would like to also like to add, if there's an all-grain recipe that you simply MUST brew, feel free to post it on the forums (or PM me) and I will convert it to an extract recipe for you. B)

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You got it...  Boil water, add UME (either DME or LME), add hops and start timer.  Hop schedules work in this fashion...  when they say drop hops at 60, 20, and 5, that means essentially if you start a countdown timer, add the hops with 60, 20, and 5 minutes remaining.  Then, after the hop boil, remove the hops, add any HME that you are using (if any), and cool the wort before adding to fermenter.

Totally agree with Swenocha and to add my own clarification to the timing of adding hops: I set my timers for 40 minutes for bittering ops, then to add the 2nd level of Hops for flavoring hops set the timer for 15 minutes, then to add the 3rd level of Hops for aroma hops set the timer for 5 minutes. I do it this way so i don't have to watch the countdown timer but have my timer alarm alert me...you get your 60 - 20 - 5 with alerts!!! Just this old mans way of doing things so my memory doesn't have to.

 

Salud my friends

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why not just use an extract recipe?  pretty much all styles are covered.   not all grains are available as an extract

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UME and water you need a gravity of .030 to get hop conversion. I only used half the UME at the start added the rest @ 10 min.. Also you can use more hops @ 20 min and get the same IBUs but a stronger hop flavor. 

Certainly bow to a brewing guru, but what is the evidence that isomerization of hops need at least a gravity of 1.030. I make hopped meads and I boil my hops in spring water: gravity is 1.000 or as near dammit, and I don't have any trouble with the bittering, the falvoring or the aromatics (depending when I add the hops). Why would isomerization depend on sugar content (I presume that you are talking about the need for sugars in the water) of the water to isomerize the acids in the hops?

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Whether specific gravity impacts alpha-acid isomerization depends on who you ask. Glenn Tinseth (A home brewer who developed the equations that are used by most brewing software) found that gravity does have an impact on utilization. This is commonly accepted by homebrewers. However, Mark Malowicki (Has a Master of Science in Food Science and Technology) found that there is no correlation between gravity and hop utilization.

It is generally accepted that hop utilization is better in low-gravity worts than in high-gravity worts. This is why homebrewers are told to decrease the amount of hops in a recipe if they switch from boiling a concentrated wort to conducting a full-wort boil.

Also, it's the concentration of proteins in the wort that affect isomerization/utilization rather than the sugars. As the proteins coagulate and drop out of suspension, they take some of the hop acids with them, decreasing the total amount available for isomerization.

John Palmer explains it a bit in his free online brewing manual: http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter5-5.html

So the basic rule of thumb is not to boil your hops in a wort that is over 1.030. So you're correct that a gravity is not needed (some will debate this). I, too make hopped meads and ciders and have never needed to depend on specific gravity for hop isomerization.

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why not just use an extract recipe?  pretty much all styles are covered.   not all grains are available as an extract

1) There are very few all extract lager recipes

2) I'm not a fan of the steeping/mashing of grains; I'm willing to go as far as boiling hops but that's about my limit.

3) I make 4-5 2.5 gallon batches on brew day; time saving techniques is my friend but I would still like SOME variety.

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1) There are very few all extract lager recipes

2) I'm not a fan of the steeping/mashing of grains; I'm willing to go as far as boiling hops but that's about my limit.

3) I make 4-5 2.5 gallon batches on brew day; time saving techniques is my friend but I would still like SOME variety.

 

So now I'm really confused, I thought you were asking about how to make beer using UME/LME (same thing), hops, etc.?

 

Answers to above:

 

1) There are lots of lager recipes, including for Oktoberfests.  Lagers use lager yeast and ferment cool.  Ales use ale yeast and ferment warmer.   If you're saying there are few recipes that are extract and hops only, that's probably correct, and not just regarding lagers, because LME by itself with hops would be a very boring beer.  Blue Moon clones use wheat LME, spices, and hops, not steeped grains.  There are also wheat fruit beers that don't steep grains.  

 

2) Steeping is very easy.  Buy grains, have them milled, stick in a mesh bag, stick in a pot of 155 degree water, put the lid on.  20 minutes later it's done.  As easy as making tea.    You can then add UME/LME, bring it to a boil, and add hops per a recipe.  Saying you're not a fan of it, if you haven't done it, makes no sense.  

 

Mr. Beer brewers can buy 4 oz of Carafoam or Carapils at their LHBS, a cheesecloth bag, and steep for 20 minutes and increase head retention and body without impact taste of any Mr. Beer refill.  This is a very logical first step for someone ready for the next step.

 

3) Variety with Mr. Beer recipes includes adding LME and hops, adding steeped grains and LME, adding steeped grains, LME, and hops.  

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Now I'm confused too. I don't see why you can't make all kinds of lager recipes from all extract. And I don't think steeping and mashing is so complicated that anyone can't do it. If I can do it, anyone can. I realize that I've had 6 years of high school education, which is a bit above average, but my school counselor told me that another year or two and I could have graduated. So don't sell yourself short.

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So now I'm really confused, I thought you were asking about how to make beer using UME/LME (same thing), hops, etc.?

 

Answers to above:

 

1) There are lots of lager recipes, including for Oktoberfests.  Lagers use lager yeast and ferment cool.  Ales use ale yeast and ferment warmer.   If you're saying there are few recipes that are extract and hops only, that's probably correct, and not just regarding lagers, because LME by itself with hops would be a very boring beer.  Blue Moon clones use wheat LME, spices, and hops, not steeped grains.  There are also wheat fruit beers that don't steep grains.  

 

2) Steeping is very easy.  Buy grains, have them milled, stick in a mesh bag, stick in a pot of 155 degree water, put the lid on.  20 minutes later it's done.  As easy as making tea.    You can then add UME/LME, bring it to a boil, and add hops per a recipe.  Saying you're not a fan of it, if you haven't done it, makes no sense.  

 

Mr. Beer brewers can buy 4 oz of Carafoam or Carapils at their LHBS, a cheesecloth bag, and steep for 20 minutes and increase head retention and body without impact taste of any Mr. Beer refill.  This is a very logical first step for someone ready for the next step.

 

3) Variety with Mr. Beer recipes includes adding LME and hops, adding steeped grains and LME, adding steeped grains, LME, and hops.  

RickBeer: Are you saying brewing a SMASH recipe is a boring beer? I disagree. I am looking forward to a couple of SMASH recipes I just brewed in 2 of my 8 LBKs...one with Maris Otter with Mt Hood hops (60-20-7) and a Ultra Light Pale Ale with Willamette hops (60-20-7)...2.5 gallons each that tasted fantastic via OG samples. definitely not boring at all where this cowboy rides.  Just saying!!!

 

Salud my friends 

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RickBeer: Are you saying brewing a SMASH recipe is a boring beer? I disagree. I am looking forward to a couple of SMASH recipes I just brewed in 2 of my 8 LBKs...one with Maris Otter with Mt Hood hops (60-20-7) and a Ultra Light Pale Ale with Willamette hops (60-20-7)...2.5 gallons each that tasted fantastic via OG samples. definitely not boring at all where this cowboy rides. Just saying!!!

Salud my friends

Most LME isn't one grain, often with Carapils added, so it would not be a SMASH. I believe there are a few. Regardless, the OP asked if he could do LME and hops and get the same result as doing a grain steep, and the answer is no.

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Your NOT going to get an AG taste with out using some grains. You want to do an all extract recipe go for it, this is from howtobrew.com adapted to 2.5 gal;

 

Recipe
Cincinnati Pale Ale
Ingredients for a 2.5 gallon batch
 

  • 1-2 lb. Pale malt extract syrup, unhopped
  • 1 lb. Amber dry malt extract
  • 12 AAU of bittering hops (any variety) For example, .5 oz. of 12% AA Nugget, or .75 oz. of 8% AA Perle
  • 5 AAU of finishing hops (Cascade or other) For example, .5 oz. of 5% Cascade or .65oz. of 4% Liberty
  • 1 packets of dried ale yeast (US-05 would be a good choice)

Bittering hops for 1 hour(.5oz) and the finishing hops in 2 drops. 1 at -20 min and 1 at -5 min. using half the finishing hops in each drop. Fill he LBK to the top of the Q in Quarts on the back

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Hey T8r, good to see you back! 

Well thank you and tis good to be back on the borg though I have never stopped brewing...for that would be a CARDINAL SIN.

 

Salud Da Yooper

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Here's your answer:

 

Converting All Grain Recipes to Extract

This week we take a look how you can convert an all grain recipe to malt extract (or back). The majority of brewers (perhaps 70%) brew with malt extract recipes, though most serious enthusiasts have made the switch to all-grain. Yet it is the small percentage of expert brewers who write all of the brewing books and publish a large portion of recipes online. This can leave many extract brewers out in the cold

The basic process for converting an all grain recipe to extract is as follows:

  • Convert the base malt (usually pale malt grains) to an equivalent amount of extract
  • Adjust the color of the beer down to match the original color
  • Dial the hops up to match the IBUs of the original recipe

Converting a recipe is best done with the aid of brewing software or a good spreadsheet since you need to be able to adjust the original color, IBUs and original gravity estimates. At the end of the article, I will cover exactly how to do this using our software in a single step. However, I believe it’s important to understand what’s going on under the hood.

Converting Grains to Malt Extract

For the first step, convert your base malt to extract. The base malt is easy to identify as it is the largest ingredient in the beer – typically 5-10 lbs of pale malt. For example, let’s look at an all-grain ale with 8 lbs of pale malt and 1 lb of crystal malt. The simplest base malt conversion is to just multiply the number of pounds of pale male by 0.75 to get the pounds of liquid extract. Therefore 8 pounds of pale malt becomes 6 pounds of liquid extract.

An equivalent conversion for dry extract is 0.6, so 8 pounds of pale malt becomes 4.8 pounds of dry malt. A more accurate conversion would actually take the potential of the grain and extract into account when converting malt, but I will leave that topic for a future article.

To simplify things, we leave the specialty malts (1 lb of crystal) alone and switch to steeping them instead of mashing them. Some specialty malts (notably wheats, Munich malt, flaked and torrified grains) cannot be steeped and need to be replaced with a reasonable substitute. For example, those grains listed in our online grain listing as “must mash” should not be steeped.  The same is true if you have a large proportion of specialty malt.

A good rule of thumb is you should steep no more than 3-5 lbs of specialty grains in the final extract recipe. Obviously you want to choose your malt extract to match the original color and style of the beer. If you are converting a wheat beer, choose a wheat extract. Beers with large amounts of Munich malt require a Munich extract. If you are making a light colored beer, pick the palest extract you can find. Pale extract is always a good starting point.

Matching Beer Color

Once you have your base malt converted, the next step is to match your color. Malt extracts are almost always darker than the equivalent pale malt due to darkening in production and storage, so you will need to reduce the color and quantity your specialty malts to match the same color as the original beer.

To manually calculate the color of both your original beer and the final beer you can view our article on beer color. However, I recommend using your favorite brewing software or a spreadsheet to simplify the process.

If you don’t have home brewing software, the best way to come up with the same color as the original is really by trial and error. You can swap the existing specialty grains with lighter color grains (try 40L Crystal as a substitute for 60L Crystal malt for example), or you can reduce the amount of your darker colored specialty grains until you match the color of the original recipe.

Some very light colored beer styles such as Koelsch may be impossible to precisely match using malt extract simply because commercial malt extracts are much darker than equivalent pale malt grains. In these cases, try to get as light as you can and consider using malts such as Carafoam (if appropriate) to replace crystal malts if appropriate to further reduce the color.

Adjusting Bitterness

The last step is to match the bitterness (IBUs) of the original beer. When going from all grain to extract this involves adding more hops because partial batch boils result in lower hop utilization than full batch boils used by all grain brewers. Some use a rule of thumb such as “add 20% more hops” but it is far more accurate to calculate and match the IBUs for both versions.

Again a spreadsheet or program is needed to calculate the International Bitterness Units (IBUs) of the original beer and final beer. Don’t use HBU’s (Home bitterness units) here since the boil sizes between all grain and extract brews are much different. Before starting, make sure you have the correct boil size both for the original beer and converted recipe set correctly when calculating IBUs. All grain brewers use full size boils (6+ gallons for a 5 gallon brew), while extract brewers use much smaller boils (perhaps 2-3 gallons for 5 gallons of beer). This has a large effect on IBU calculation.

Once you have both calculations set up, simply increase the hop additions incrementally until you reach your target bitterness. You now have an extract beer recipe that will closely match your all grain recipe.

You can use the above three step guide with any brewing software or well designed spreadsheet to manually perform the three steps (convert base malt, adjust color, adjust bitterness). If you wish to convert back (extract to all grain), you can follow the same three steps, but this time divide by the conversion factor (6 lbs of pale extract/0.75 = 8 lbs of pale malt)

BeerSmith has a nice conversion wizard built in to do all three steps in one shot. Open the recipe you want converted, click on the ‘Convert Recipe’ toolbar button (or “Convert Recipe Wizard” on the “Actions” menu). Select the type (All Grain, Extract, Partial Mash) of conversion you wish to perform. Pick the target equipment profile you wish to convert to (since your extract equipment likely has a much smaller boil pot) and press the OK button. The program will perform all three steps and give you the finished recipe. It is a very handy feature if you have recipes from a book or the web that you wish to convert quickly.

Thank you again for your continued support!

Brad Smith

BeerSmith.com

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