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Dry Yeast Starter

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Have any of you made a dry yeast starter?  If so, how did it go?  Thanks in advance! :)

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You don't make a dry yeast starter. You have enough cells already. The purpose to to produce more cells. You have approx 100 billion cells I believe, depending on who you ask

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7 minutes ago, Creeps McLane said:

You don't make a dry yeast starter. You have enough cells already. The purpose to to produce more cells. You have approx 100 billion cells I believe, depending on who you ask

Not sure if this makes much of a difference, but this is not for a Mr.Beer 2g recipe it is for a 5g recipe.  *Just curious here--Did you mean you DON'T make a yeast starter or don't "need to" make a dry yeast starter?

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Dry yeast has enough cells for a 5 gallon batch in an 11 or 11.5 gram packet. Liquid yeast needs a starter.

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Here's what I think I know... I'm never too sure about anything sometimes.

 

both dry and liquid yeast start out with approx 100 billion cells. Lager dry yeast have even more.  Dry yeast maintains cell count much better than liquid because they're hibernating instead of living and respirating like liquid yeast. Liquid yeast loses about 10 or 14% viability each month. You create a starter to then gain back some of those lost cells. Creating a dry yeast starter is a waste of time and just one more step to introduce bacteria. You can proof dry yeast but that's also a waste of time in my opinion. 

 

hope that makes sense. If you're like me you need to know the why's of what you're doing. So I tried to explain as best I could.  

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Haha...  you get it!  I also need to know the whys.  Well here is what I did for better, worse, or indifference.  I did a dry yeast starter with some US-05.  It's going into Northern Brewer's 5g Phat Tyre Ale.  If it helps than so be it; if it doesn't than whatever.  It's only a 36hr starter, so I'll have to see if yeast propagation occurs.  I'll update before brewing.  Thank you Creeps & Rick for the input.  I honestly appreciate it. :)

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Dry yeast has significantly more cells than liquid yeast, hence the need for liquid yeast starters.

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I actually was researching this last night for whatever reason. Based off of one website is where I got my info. Basically 04 and 05 have the least amount of cells. Approx 92 billion by my math. Other dry yeasts can be double that. Most people just assume all dry yeast has x amount of cells. I generally don't worry about it. 

 

I had told my buddy dry yeast has 6x as many cells and possibly as much as 600 billion cells. I may have been exaggerating a little bit. That was before I actually looked it up. 

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I also have done some reading on this subject, instead try using 2 packs of 05,more yeast is better, cost more of course, I have read that some macrobrewery's this is a common practice of doubling their yeast pitch, but as rick and creeps has said there's no need to make a starter for dry yeast

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Also the bigger the beer ,the hard the one pack of yeast hast to work,so the higher the abv(more sugar) more yeast,at least this is what I have read,I have the book handy I will get and see if I got this right lol

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OK,.... A high starting gravity reading over 1.060 on your hydrometer ( high malt/ sugar content) means more stress for the yeast which can lead to off flavors if this occurs it's recommended pitching 2 packs on your next five gallon batch as opposed to making a starter to increase cell count,

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7 minutes ago, Bighead beer said:

Yeast is a very very crazy animal lol, it's absolutely fascinating how this stuff works

Agreed.  It's just recently that I've been concentrating on the yeast as much as the ingredients, and the difference is quite noticeable.  I've already made a starter for this recipe so I'm going to go ahead and use it.  I do see that it has some obvious signs of propagation, so I'm pretty happy about that.

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however, some dry yeasts are recommended that they be re hydrated, as of the lallemans American west coast yeast I used in the waimea ipa I brewed last weekend

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There is a bunch of misinformation / misunderstanding here.  I'd strongly recommend that people read the MANUFACTURER'S WEBSITES, not beer forums, when searching for factual information about yeast.  There are also many old discussions on the forum where fact is separated from fiction.

 

Yeast is very, very complex.  In fact, there are books about it.  Here's one by Chris White, as in White Labs. He has a PhD in yeast biochemistry.

 

I don't profess to be an expert.  I only use dry yeast, and I've used 5 different ones in my nearly 4 years brewing.

 

On the Fermentis site, they show >6 Billion cells per gram for all their yeasts, which would be  >69 Billion per 11 gram packet.  That's for S-04, S-05, S-23 and W-34/70 (both lager yeasts), and T-58, S-33, WB-06 and BE-256.  

 

Since Lallemand (Danstar) has let their domain expire (wow...), their fact sheets have to be found elsewhere.  Nottingham lists >= 5 Billion cells per gram, so their 11 gram packet has >= 55 Billion cells, less than the Fermentis yeasts.   Windsor lists >= 7 Billion per gram, or >= 77 Billion per 11 gram packet.

 

Dry lager yeast does NOT have less cells than dry ale yeast.  Lagers require TWICE the number of cells that ales require, so you need two packets of lager yeast for a 5 gallon batch versus one packet for an ale.

 

Many have experimented with rehydration of dry yeast vs. just pitching onto the beer (i.e. Mr. Beer instructions).  Fermentis provides instructions for both.  Danstar's instructions imply they want you to rehyrdate.  As I said, many have done both.  The ONLY noticed difference was that active fermentation kicked in faster.  No difference in the final outcome.  Therefore, rehydration of dry yeast is basically a waste of time.

 

As to the point of a big beer needing more yeast, it depends.  Most dry yeasts can easily handle a brew with an OG of 1.11+ with no issue.  S-05 is frequently used.  The key is understand what you're trying to accomplish, because different yeasts have different rates of attenuation.  It's math.  ABV= OG - FG x 1.3125.  So, if you use a yeast that lowers the FG more than another yeast, you get a higher ABV.  S-05 will go further than S-04 for example.  

 

Like anything with brewing (or life in general), you'll find lots of information on the internets.  The internets is full of information, often less full of facts.  Anyone can type anything onto a website.  I try to read and learn, but remember that facts are facts.  Opinions are opinions.  Some opinions are based on facts and experimentation.  Some are based on nothing.  On a truck forum I frequent, people get on and say things like "Tire X is amazing.  Much better than tire Y." I ask if they did a side-by-side comparison.  I ask if they did any scientific assessment, such as measuring stopping distance, again side by side.  They usually have no answer.  

 

What Uncle Fred says on www.IMakeUpThings.com is not the same as what Chris White says.  So take everything with a gram of salt (get it, gram, not grain, ....).  

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36 minutes ago, RickBeer said:

There is a bunch of misinformation / misunderstanding here.  I'd strongly recommend that people read the MANUFACTURER'S WEBSITES, not beer forums, when searching for factual information about yeast.  There are also many old discussions on the forum where fact is separated from fiction.

 

Yeast is very, very complex.  In fact, there are books about them.  Here's one by Chris White, as in White Labs.  He has a PhD in yeast biochemistry.

 

I don't profess to be an expert.  I only use dry yeast, and I've used 5 different ones in my nearly 4 years brewing.

 

On the Fermentis site, they show >6 Billion cells per gram for all their yeasts, which would be  >69 Billion per 11 gram packet.  That's for S-04, S-05, S-23 and W-34/70 (both lager yeasts), and T-58, S-33, WB-06 and BE-256.  

 

Since Lallemand (Danstar) has let their domain expire (wow...), their fact sheets have to be found elsewhere.  Nottingham lists >= 5 Billion cells per gram, so their 11 gram packet has >= 55 Billion cells, less than the Fermentis yeasts.   Windsor lists >= 7 Billion per gram, or >= 77 Billion per 11 gram packet.

 

Dry lager yeast does NOT have less cells than dry ale yeast.  Lagers require TWICE the number of cells that ales require, so you need two packets of lager yeast for a 5 gallon batch versus one packet for an ale.

 

Many have experimented with rehydration of dry yeast vs. just pitching onto the beer (i.e. Mr. Beer instructions).  Fermentis provides instructions for both.  Danstar's instructions imply they want you to rehyrdate.  As I said, many have done both.  The ONLY noticed difference was that active fermentation kicked in faster.  No difference in the final outcome.  Therefore, rehydration of dry yeast is basically a waste of time.

 

As to the point of a big beer needing more yeast, it depends.  Most dry yeasts can easily handle a brew with an OG of 1.11+ with no issue.  S-05 is frequently used.  The key is understand what you're trying to accomplish, because different yeasts have different rates of attenuation.  It's math.  ABV= OG - FG x 1.3125.  So, if you use a yeast that lowers the FG more than another yeast, you get a higher ABV.  S-05 will go further than S-04 for example.  

 

Like anything with brewing (or life in general), you'll find lots of information on the internets.  The internets is full of information, often less full of facts.  Anyone can type anything onto a website.  I try to read and learn, but remember that facts are facts.  Opinions are opinions.  Some opinions are based on facts and experimentation.  Some are based on nothing.  On a truck forum I frequent, people get on and say things like "Tire X is amazing.  Much better than tire Y." I ask if they did a side-by-side comparison.  I ask if they did any scientific assessment, such as measuring stopping distance, again side by side.  They usually have no answer.  

 

What Uncle Fred says on www.IMakeUpThings.com is not the same as what Chris White says.  So take everything with a gram of salt (get it, gram, not grain, ....).  

Well said, sir!  Great information...  thank you!

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Again no expert, but after looking at that info previously, I had figured on using in LBK 1/2 pack of Fermentis for ales and a complete pack for lagers or anything else I wanted clean tasting.

And for very estery I use less than 1/2 pack (wheat e.g.)

So far it seems to be working.

 

 

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well i'm no expert, but after staying at Carlita's Cantina and Cerveza Hotel sumwhere in the middle of the Alps in Kansas, I realize that I may have contracted a yeast infection. I really dnt know if it was from my hombrew being overyeasted when I applied 8 packets of yeast to a dead batch of beer or if it became that way when naturally overyeasted ??? either way, i'm thinking of adding the overyeasted yeast to some bread i'm making while i'm staying at the cantina

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ok,,, seriously??, the American west coast yeast I used on an ipa I brewed last weekend recommended to rehydrate. so I did., safale 05 says you can rehydrate or pitch right into the wort, and just like Ricky said, the difference is the reaction is faster, no difference in the outcome of the beer flavor.

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Well I can definitely confirm the speed of the reaction theory.  I added the yeast at approximately 3:00EST and it was alive and kicking (aggressive bubbling in the airlock) by 7:00.  Will it change the flavor...?...Nope, but it was fun just making the starter and seeing the yeast multiply in the flask.  I'm going to try to wash this yeast when it's finished, so that should be fun as well.  

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You might get some different flavor or rather less flavor if you were relying on any compounds the yeast make during growth phase. I figure that will be shortened. So the way I understand it if  you were after a less estery taste you will be successful.

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Just my 2 cents worth, I am no expert but this works for me. 

 

I always rehydrate my dry yeast.  I have read where you loose half of the cell count by just sprinkling on the wort vs rehydrating.  It doesn't add any time to my brew day.  Most manufacturers recommend rehydrating their yeast, they wouldn't make that recommendation if there wasn't a benefit.  I have made a starter before but saw no real upside to doing that with dry yeast.  However, if you harvest yeast from a batch that started with dry yeast, you now basically have liquid yeast that I treat as below.

 

With liquid yeast I always make a starter.  I make a 1.5 liter starter and prior to crashing it, I pour off .5 liters into a sanitized pint mason jar and keep that yeast in my yeast bank.  I will then use that yeast to make 1.5 liter starters for future batches.  I also will make a starter if I haven't used the yeast in my bank within 3 months just to keep it fresh.  This works for me much better than washing yeast from a batch.  You get much cleaner yeast and I think more healthy yeast with this method.

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I've been fermenting in a 5-gallon carboy (4 1/2 gallon batches) and using dry yeast. It's not an option to just sprinkle dry like you can in a bucket. I've used the US-05 in a number of LBK-sized batches at a rate of 1/2 packet and everything has worked like a dream. I recently pitched a rehydrated 3/4 packet in a 4 1/2 gallon carboy batch and it's the only time I've had a blow-out...well, foam-out to be precise - I didn't lose the airlock, but it foamed through - like, seriously, a lot. :o

 I have to say it was the most vigorous fermentation I've had with any yeast, definitely the US-05, and this is just a low-gravity blonde ale and not a big stout or something. I know there a lot of variables, but I don't doubt that (even at a mathematically lower pitch rate) I had more cells working through the process than when pitching the dry yeast.

Will it make better beer? Hard to say. Either way obviously works quite well. I like the ease and economy of dry yeast, so I"ll probably continue to dry-pitch buckets and LBK's and rehydrate for carboys. If a trend emerges, maybe I'll rehydrate every time. ;)

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I got 99 problems and pitch ain't one!...:lol:

I thought I'd share this and this thread seems like as good a place as any. I've been doing almost exclusively all-grain batches lately and I decided to revisit a couple of quickie extract recipes I'd been wanting to tweak. For an Amber Ale, originally done with US-05 dry yeast, I intended to switch it up and use some S-04 trub that I'd been saving from a batch a while back. I mixed up a quick starter to proof it (just some clean, filtered water and a little sugar) and it turned out to be DOA when I was ready to pitch. I could have opened a new package of S-04 and pitched dry, but I had some recent and definitely viable US-05 slurry sitting in the fridge. I didn't really want to take the time to start it or proof it, but I had a good idea that it was plenty active. I decided to take a chance and just dumped maybe 3/4 cup or so in the LBK and stirred it up and put it away in the fermentation cabinet for the night. The wort was still just on the warm side, so I worried about shocking the poor little animals out of their slumber. And the whole thing was pretty un-scientific and ad hoc. I needn't have worried...here's the results in less than 12 hours:

20160428_085903.jpg   That is a whole bunch of yeastie dudes totally wearing their happy pants today! They're partyin' like it's 1.060! :D 

Now I just have to hope I can keep the temp right so the party doesn't spill over into the neighbors yard! Somebody'll be calling the krausen cops.:lol:

 

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I had planned on making a starter out of a dry yeast at one point, because I was making a high gravity ale and it just seemed like "good insurance." Ultimately I decided not to; I rehydrated and slowly acclimatized the yeast with small introductions of wort and then pitched. That batch nearly blew the airlock off and attenuated perfectly.

 

When it comes to LBK sized batches I am of the opinion that pitching a full 11-11.5 gram packet of dry yeast is overkill, and pitching a whole rehydrated packet is going "thermo- nuke-ya-ler."  One of the most prolific home brewers I know, intentionally (and exclusively) pitches liquid yeast into 5 gal batches with no starter because he is looking for those esters (some call them "off flavors" I disagree).  He focuses MUCH more on fermentation temp schedules than on starting yeast cell count. His beers are some of the most flavorful I have ever had.

 

Bottom line, if your yeast is alive, it will make beer. It will almost assuredly make good beer. Depending on the combination of your palate and pitching process you will make great beer.

 

RaHaHB

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