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Dry Hopping Compared to Just Leaving It In

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For dry hopping the recommended advice I have come across is to add it to the wort for 5 days towards the end of fermentation. This results in aroma and flavor, but not much bitterness. To increase bitterness the hops would need to be boiled with the malt for 50+ minutes when creating the wart.

 

The 1776 Ale recipe calls for adding the hops right after the water boils and is removed from the heat source. Then it says to leave the hops in the LBK until fermentation is complete (~3 weeks). What does this do?

Edited by mpthemaster
Corrected for accuracy.

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As you can see from the chart below, 10 minutes doesn't get much bitterness.  Some recipes are dry hopping a week or two in, the others have you add it at flameoff, which gets you a tad more flavor and some bitterness.

 

hop_utilization3.jpg

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Thanks for the correction, RickBeer.

 

So adding the hops in from flameoff and keeping them in the wort for the full duration of fermenting is for maximum flavor and aroma with slight bitterness compared to dry hopping?

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Not exactly.  Max flavor would be at just over 20 mins in a boil.  Max aroma would be at 8 mins.  This gives you some of all 3, instead of just aroma.

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I have seen some hop data indicating that the flavor/aroma you get will vary depending on how long you leave the dry hop in.

I saw they described using HBC438 that you get floral aromas on 4 days but stone fruits after 2-4 weeks.

Also consider Boston Lager is set on the hops for 3 weeks.

 

Anyway I am going to DH my experimental IPA with HBC438 for 2 weeks (1 week after yeast pitch)  as well as putting some in at flameout.  

 

All in all I guess it is a compromise combination based on the volatility of the flavor/aroma compounds, the solubility of them, how long and what temp you use to extract them and the loss of them with outgassing from active fermentation and boiling.

The combination that remains for your aroma and flavor are what you are looking to optimize.  So much is subjective but once you get a combination you like, do it again.

 

As much as anyone I like the smell of the hops boiling and the smell from the fermenter (except for lagers - sulphur) but I regret I am losing some of these aromas and they won't all be in the bottle.

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1 hour ago, Nickfixit said:

I have seen some hop data indicating that the flavor/aroma you get will vary depending on how long you leave the dry hop in.

I saw they described using HBC438 that you get floral aromas on 4 days but stone fruits after 2-4 weeks.

Also consider Boston Lager is set on the hops for 3 weeks.

 

Anyway I am going to DH my experimental IPA with HBC438 for 2 weeks (1 week after yeast pitch)  as well as putting some in at flameout.  

 

All in all I guess it is a compromise combination based on the volatility of the flavor/aroma compounds, the solubility of them, how long and what temp you use to extract them and the loss of them with outgassing from active fermentation and boiling.

The combination that remains for your aroma and flavor are what you are looking to optimize.  So much is subjective but once you get a combination you like, do it again.

 

As much as anyone I like the smell of the hops boiling and the smell from the fermenter (except for lagers - sulphur) but I regret I am losing some of these aromas and they won't all be in the bottle.

Rumor has it you get more aroma dry hopping for 1 day vs 5 or so. Thats what ive been reading lately. Scientific studies even!!!

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4 hours ago, Creeps McLane said:

Or is it studys @AnthonyC? Im going with studys

Good thing you phoned a friend---studies. :)

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4 hours ago, Creeps McLane said:

Rumor has it you get more aroma dry hopping for 1 day vs 5 or so. Thats what ive been reading lately. Scientific studies even!!!

Maybe you do.

I think the aroma will be different depending on how many days you do it but I have not experimented to check.

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Well I will say, I tried a bottle and it was delightfully fruity in the mouth, a good aroma but not big like Citra and Cascade. The 2 week  DH worked out :-)

It is a bit hazy, but I don't think it is the yeast. Don't hops make a haze too sometimes?

HB438 IPA 20160816_123622.png

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On ‎7‎/‎4‎/‎2016 at 2:54 PM, RickBeer said:

As you can see from the chart below, 10 minutes doesn't get much bitterness.  Some recipes are dry hopping a week or two in, the others have you add it at flameoff, which gets you a tad more flavor and some bitterness.

 

hop_utilization3.jpg

Well, this is interesting as it shows what proportion of available contribution you get over time. The brewing calculators do not seen top operate on that bitterness curve

I was curious so I plotted the results from Brewer's Friend IBU calculator. It does not show the same initial lag in getting IBU contribution.

Am I doing something wrong?

I had been using this and I did think my results were less bitter than I expected. Using 1 oz. and 10 AA here, I figured I just use a multiplier for other amounts and strengths making it simple to get desired IBUs. (Of course I would not use 5 gal for Mr B batch size but this is an example.)

 

Hop Utilization Brewer's Friend.png

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Actual, playing around with this a bit more,

I find that with OG of 1.000 (no malt) it does not matter how little water I use in the boil. the IBU does not change.

I find that the IBU is very affected by the OG which may account for my lower than expected IBU, as I was boiling hops in concentrated wort (the 4 cups plus malt extract (before HME adds). If the calculator is correct, and one works the proportions than it really cuts down the bittering in time.

So adding bittering to a Mr Beer recipe using only a small amount of water is a more tricky design.

I note that Coopers (AU) suggest using a coffee steeper to steep hops in boiling water for a while then use the liquid (This is their Pilsner recipe)

Maybe boiling the hops in plain water is the best way for adding bitterness to the HME recipes then adding the extracts.

As this page suggests, it is not that clear cut - there is more at stake, especially if one is doing a partial mash.

http://bavarianbrewerytech.com/news/boilhops.htm

 

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On August 18, 2016 at 10:19 AM, Nickfixit said:

Actual, playing around with this a bit more,

I find that with OG of 1.000 (no malt) it does not matter how little water I use in the boil. the IBU does not change.

I find that the IBU is very affected by the OG which may account for my lower than expected IBU, as I was boiling hops in concentrated wort (the 4 cups plus malt extract (before HME adds). If the calculator is correct, and one works the proportions than it really cuts down the bittering in time.

So adding bittering to a Mr Beer recipe using only a small amount of water is a more tricky design.

I note that Coopers (AU) suggest using a coffee steeper to steep hops in boiling water for a while then use the liquid (This is their Pilsner recipe)

Maybe boiling the hops in plain water is the best way for adding bitterness to the HME recipes then adding the extracts.

As this page suggests, it is not that clear cut - there is more at stake, especially if one is doing a partial mash.

http://bavarianbrewerytech.com/news/boilhops.htm

 

From my understanding you will get 0 bitterness in boiling in water. You will have a nice tea though. You need the malt for hop utilization.

 

What youre finding out is called the "bigness factor" the higher the gravity wort the less hop utilization. 

 

These things kinda seem contrary, but its like this, forgive my scenario... The more women in your bedroom the less sexual utilization a man may have. Yet you need the woman to even have "utilization". So really you need to find the sweet spot for the ratio of women to the man... I prefer 2 to my one... 

 

I found this page awhile back and bookmarked it immediately because i found it very helpful

http://www.realbeer.com/hops/research.html

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3 hours ago, Creeps McLane said:

From my understanding you will get 0 bitterness in boiling in water. You will have a nice tea though. You need the malt for hop utilization.

 

What youre finding out is called the "bigness factor" the higher the gravity wort the less hop utilization. 

 

These things kinda seem contrary, but its like this, forgive my scenario... The more women in your bedroom the less sexual utilization a man may have. Yet you need the woman to even have "utilization". So really you need to find the sweet spot for the ratio of women to the man... I prefer 2 to my one... 

 

I found this page awhile back and bookmarked it immediately because i found it very helpful

http://www.realbeer.com/hops/research.html

In traditional thought though ,the "bigness factor" in your scenario would be expected to have the opposite effect.

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