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The not-so-famous CAL experiment

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Okay, Mr. Why asked, and while I wasn't going to post until tomorrow, I guess the earlier I do it, the more advise I'll get from you folks.

 

My experiment is to brew 4 LBK's of CAL.  Each will get a different LME (golden, pale, smooth and robust).  I will add a booster to each, but I won't add anything else that would affect the taste (no additional grains or hops).  The primary difference will be the LME used.  I say "primary" because there are things that I can't control that might affect the experiment.  Three of the CAL cans have a best-by date of August 5, 2016, while one is August 4 2017.  Thus, while the CAL itself should be identical, three are a year older than the fourth.  Also, the LME's aren't the same expire date, but the oldest has a best-by date of August 2017, and they are all very close to the same date..

 

A true experiment should have all four HME's and all four LME's of the same born-on date.  I don't think this is going to be a huge issue, but I'm open to suggestions as to using one LME on the newer HME can to try to "even" things out.  Each batch will ferment with Safeale 05, all four packs have the same best-by date.  I chose this instead of the regular pack of yeast because of the addition of the booster.

 

As of right now, the plans is to start two LBK's Saturday, and the other two next Saturday (I only have two available now, but will have two more freed up next weekend).  Ferment standard 3 weeks, carb with the same box of Domino sugar cubes for all four batches, and carb/condition for at least 5 weeks (at least two months total time).  Each will get a gold bottle cap with JUST the initial of the LME used.  Once ready, and once my friend's pool is ready, I will take several of each to a pool party.  I will let my friend, his wife, his daughter (she's 16, but he lets her sample beer, and it's not up to me), and any friends/family they have sample them.  I will have them write notes as to what they think of the taste of each beer, knowing only the letter on the cap.  I will report back on what they think is the best/worst, and what they think each tasted like compared to commercial brews.

 

My current thinking:

 

- As I said before, should I use a particular LME on the younger can of HME, or should the "best by" date not be a huge issue at this point

- Should I wait a week, and brew all four at the same time?  If I do, I will get a better balance of fermenting temperatures, and not a cases where two fermented/condition a week ahead of time, and thus not having a near-exact ferment/condition air temp as the other.  No, I can't put them in the fridge and use the temp control gadget, as it is being used on the freezer to condition a lager.

- I won't tell the people drinking the beer what the letter means.  I'll just tell them it's a code used by the brewery.  They also shouldn't tell each other what they think, but just write down notes, and once each of the four are sampled, I'll consider telling them that G is "golden", R is "robust", etc.  This should help not bias the decision.

 

I'm opening the table to thoughts.

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Oh, and by the way.  I did consider mixing all four cans of CAL, so that they will all be "equal" in date, but thought that:

 

1) this wouldn't really be necessary,

2) it might introduce unwanted material, having the HME exposed to the air for an extra amount of time, and

3) the challenge to make sure each keg got as close to the same amount of HME as possible.

 

And yes, each batch will get a freshly dishwasher-washed set of tools, and fresh sanitizer, so each batch will be as close to the others as possible

 

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This is going to be an interesting experiment and I am excitedly awaiting results!!!

 

1. I am assuming each LMe will affect color. But will it be significantly noticeable?  Guessing the extremes....pale and robust, yes. But smooth and robust? Looking forward to finding out!

2. Will the taste between them be noticeable? Will color affect taste? If the color is perceptively different, I would love if you can control for that and for taste.

--

 

Great experiment!!!!! Looking forward to whatever you discover!

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No doubt that taste will be different between the four (hence the name of each LME).  I doubt I will notice it much as I don't have a strong sense of taste.  This is why I'm depending on others, and if I might be sexist, the women (they seem to have a stronger sense of taste).  Not sure if color will affect taste,  but it color is a concern, I can get Solo cups to make the color less noticeable.

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1)  Using S-05 because you are adding Booster implies you think the Mr. Beer yeast cannot handle 5.1%.  That is not correct.  S-05 is a different yeast, but in this case I would say you are wasting money.

 

2) You are allowing a 16 year old to drink your beer.  You, not your friend, are responsible for that legally.  If he buys her beer, that is his responsibility.   If he serves her your beer with your knowledge, that is your responsibility.   Stop this nonsense and say no.

 

3) You will notice little difference, if any across all 4.  8.8 ounces added to a 1.86 pound can plus Booster will be very diluted.

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1.  I have the extra S-05, so it's not money wasted so much as money already spent.  Might as well use it.

2.  I'm not the one letting her drink. Her parents are.  I've not seen her drink, but I was told that she did *sample* my beers previously.  Based on how it was described, she sampled, not drank, so it sounded like a minimal amount just for the taste.  In my presence, I would request that my friend give her at most one sip, but as she isn't my child, it is his house, and he is giving it to his own 16 year old, it's not my responsibility.  I can only say "not more than a sip".

3.  I figured I will notice little difference, but again, I have a very weak sense of taste.  It's mostly just to see if anyone can taste the difference, and to enjoy a few home brews by the pool.

 

On to color, I have heard that HME can turn darker as it gets older, but I don't know to what degree.  Also, I'm sure the LMEs vary in color too.  If I wanted to try to balance things out, I would use the darkest colored LME on the youngest HME, and the rest on the older.  But still, I don't think color is going to be a factor in this taste test (but......I could be wrong).

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1) $4 per pack is spent regardless.

 

2) It is your beer, that you know he is giving her.  And possibly in your presence.  Therefore, you have responsibility, as does he, legally.   You should state to him that he should not give her your beer.  If he does it in your presence, you are on the hook.  Period.  How to prevent it?  Simply don't give him your beer.  See below.  Claim whatever you want, but what if she tells a friend about it, maybe on social media?  And they tell their parents, who then tell authorities.  MiniYoda is on the hook.  Boom.

 

Kicker is that in some states,  the parents CAN give her beer, but you cannot.  And, in some states, it is illegal to transport your beer to their house...

 

And if she then drove somewhere, she can not have a drop of alcohol in her, legally.  Fender bender happens, police come, boom again.  MiniYoda in stripes.  And if someone sues for injuries, there goes your house...

 

Contributing To The Delinquency Of A Minor

 

Adults who persuade or help minors commit acts of juvenile delinquency may be charged with the crime of contributing to the delinquency of a minor (or "CDM"). A minor is anyone under the age of majority, 18 in most states. Since possession of alcohol is an act of juvenile delinquency, for example, providing alcohol to minors would be an act of CDM in most cases. Colorado was the first to establish the crime in 1903 and all states now have such laws, even though most have carved out some exceptions.

An act of juvenile delinquency is basically a crime committed by a minor and handled outside of the criminal justice system. Definitions of delinquency and laws affecting juveniles may vary from state to state (see Juvenile Justice for more information).

This article focuses on the crime of contributing to the delinquency of a minor, particularly the common act of providing alcohol to minors. For more information, see Underage DUI: Zero Tolerance Laws; MIP: A Minor in Possession; Social Host Liability; and additional articles in FindLaw’s Alcohol Crimes section.

CDM: Elements of the Crime

Every state makes it a crime for adults to aid a minor's act of delinquency. They differ but are generally similar in scope. For instance, most states will charge you with a misdemeanor if you offer to buy a case of beer for a teen or host a keg party attended by your teenage son and his friends. Some states, however, treat the crime as a felony in certain instances.

The elements of CDM generally include:

  • An adult (or another minor, in some states) committed an act or failed to perform a duty (sometimes regardless of intent).
  • This act or omission caused (or has the tendency to cause) a minor to become or remain:
    1. A dependent of the juvenile court; or
    2. A delinquent; or
    3. A habitual truant

Most laws use language such as “tending to cause delinquency.” This means the minor does not actually have to commit an act of delinquency for the adult to be charged for the crime. For example, your 14-year-old neighbor does not have to actually possess the case of beer you bought for him in order for you to be charged for CDM.

CDM Laws Vary by State

Some laws specifically state that only “parents, legal guardians, and others who have care of custody of a child” may be charged with CDM. But these jurisdictions also usually prosecute others, such coworkers or strangers, for contributing to the delinquency of a minor. Additionally, the term “contributing” is very broadly defined by most statutes, leaving it open to interpretation by a jury or judge.

Different jurisdictions disagree over whether the behavior must actually lead to an act of delinquency (referred to in the “elements” section, above) and whether mens rea (a “guilty mind”) is required for a guilty verdict. Some states only require the intent to commit the act in question, regardless of whether the defendant knew the minor’s actual age. But others allow an affirmative defense based on lack of mens rea, such as being unaware of the minor’s age and thus not intending to commit the crime.

Examples of state CDM laws:

  • California (Cal. Pen. Code § 272): Includes acts that “tend to” cause delinquency; charged as a misdemeanor, punishable by a maximum fine of $2,500 and up to one year in jail.
  • Florida (Florida Statute 827.04): Charged as a first-degree misdemeanor, punishable by a $1,000 fine and up to one year in jail; statute explicitly states that it is not necessary for the child to have actually committed an act of delinquency to be charged with CDM.
  • Ohio (Ohio Revised Code 2919.24): Law uses the phrase “unruly child” in reference to a juvenile delinquent. Statute explicitly states that each day of violation is prosecuted as a separate offense.

CDM vs. Providing Alcohol to Someone Underage

While those caught providing alcohol to a minor may be charged with contributing to the delinquency of a minor, they also may face a separate charge for providing alcohol to someone under the age of 21 (also referred to as a “minor,” but in the context of alcohol possession). It depends on the state and the case, but prosecutors often persuade the defendant to plead guilty to the lesser charge in exchange for dropping the more severe one. Still, prosecutors may be free to proceed with both charges.

Contributing to the Delinquency of a Minor: Exceptions

It is not always a crime to provide a minor with alcohol in at least 40 states. But these exceptions are narrowly defined. The following exceptions to the minimum legal drinking age may be valid defenses to CDM charges:

  • Private premises with parental consent: For example, serving your teenage child a glass of wine at dinner (29 states, including New York and Texas).
  • Private premises without parental consent: For example, a minor helping herself to a can of beer while home alone (six states, including Louisiana and New Jersey).
  • Religious reasons: The most common example is drinking a sip of wine at church for ceremonial purposes (25 states, including Colorado and Illinois).
  • Medical purposes: Tinctures and some other medications may contain alcohol (16 states, including Arizona and Washington).
  • Government-related work: This may include participation in government research or working undercover (four states, including Michigan and Oregon).
  • Educational Purposes: For example, adding wine to a sauce while attending culinary school (seven states, including North Carolina and Vermont).
  • Premises selling alcohol, with parental approval: For example, a teenager has a drink with her parents at a restaurant (11 states, including Massachusetts and Nevada).

 

 

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I'm not going to get into an argument here about parents serving to their minor child.  That's not the point of the thread.  If you really want, I can do the research online to see to what degree it is allowed in my state.  The *impression* I got from my friend is that there was only a small taste sample of my beers given to her, and it wasn't in my presence.  The one time I went to his house and he drank one of my beers, he offered to have her tasted it and she declined it.  So, as of today, the only time she has sampled my beers was *not* in my presence.  If he does it and I'm there, I'll tell him I don't approve.  I think my friend is mature enough and intelligent enough to not let his daughter drink beyond a sip, and the impression I get about her is that she has no desire to drink.  Again, it's not my business, and this isn't the point of the thread.

 

The one question I do have which I hope you wouldn't mind answering concerns how to do this experiment.  Should I brew all four batches on the same day, or would it matter if I did two this weekend and the other two next weekend.

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Your whole process is done to the extreme, as I'm sure you know.  The answer is that it won't matter at all.  If you are concerned about the scientific value of your experiment, simply refrigerate bottles at the same point in their conditioning, but it's CAL so it won't be a lot different.

 

Again, the issue is not your friend serving his daughter beer, it's him serving him beer that you made.

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Ok, here is my $0.02 worth.

 

The added LME will in fact effect the color and flavor of the beer.  Cal is a light beer similar in color to a Bud Light. 

 

1.  When you add a Pale LME you will see little to no change in this color.  The flavor should have a more malty backbone.

2.  When you add a Smooth LME you will see a beer that is more of an amber color.  Again the flavor will be more malty.

3.  When you add a Robust LME you will see a beer that is more brown in color.  This beer should have a slight roasted flavor.

 

I would brew them all at the same time.  The HME's with the earlier date should be the ones that you add LME.  And then brew the newer HME as is.

 

Your decision on yeast, it is your experiment.  Safale US-05 is a very neutral yeast and if the temperature is kept fairly low (64) you will not get any flavor from it.

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Thanks for the info, @BDawg62.  One thing.  I'm adding an LME to each of the four CALs.  You forgot to mention Golden.  I could brew a fifth one without any LME. 

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24 minutes ago, MiniYoda said:

Thanks for the info, @BDawg62.  One thing.  I'm adding an LME to each of the four CALs.  You forgot to mention Golden.  I could brew a fifth one without any LME. 

I didn't realize you were going to do golden.  That is a wheat LME that won't add much to the Cal except to make the beer cloudy, maybe a little bit of mouthfeel.

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4 hours ago, RickBeer said:

Using S-05 because you are adding Booster implies you think the Mr. Beer yeast cannot handle 5.1%.

What can the Mr. Beer yeast handle? I was going to make Surly Dog IPA which is 8.8% according to the recipe. I was thinking of using one or two packs of Mr. Beer yest instead of purchasing the US 05. Any thoughts? This might be a question for someone at Mr. Beer. Thanks in advance for your reply.

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It's more like 7.4% (3.1 x 2 plus 1.2 for the honey).

 

The S-05 is more for the yeast quality (clean fermenting), and likely for the attenuation as this is going to be a dry brew due to the honey.  

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Okay, so I have one vote for brew them all at the same time, and one for "it won't matter".  I'm still open to suggestions.  Voting will end Saturday morning, as that would be when I start brewing the first two if I do two this weekend and two next.

 

 

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If you have the space to ferment 4 (or 5 if you do the CAL plain) LBKs at once and since you will have all the brewing stuff out.... I say make a day of it and do em all at once. If space is gonna be an issue then split it.

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1 hour ago, MiniYoda said:

Okay, so I have one vote for brew them all at the same time, and one for "it won't matter".  I'm still open to suggestions.

 

 

As you've said, it can't be a perfect scientific experiment with three HMEs having best-by dates significantly different from the other. But I think I'd start them all the same day.

 

I suspect varying fermentation temps (that might come with a week's separation) would have more impact on the final product than the best-by dates. So it seems closer to science to control what you can, and that would be fermentation conditions.

 

BTW, I think using the Safale 05 makes sense if you already have them. Again, it's closer to science than four yeast packets of varying ages, one of them kind of old.

 

Jim

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2 hours ago, hotrod3539 said:

If you have the space to ferment 4 (or 5 if you do the CAL plain) LBKs at once and since you will have all the brewing stuff out.... I say make a day of it and do em all at once. If space is gonna be an issue then split it.

 

Space for four LBK's in tote tubs is not a problem.  It's pretty much how my kitchen floor looks right now.

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As with any real scientific experiment. The more variables you can eliminate, the more equal and trustworthy your results will be. So... I would recommend you start them all at once, and bottle them all at once. Time and temperature are variables that you can eliminate.

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Based on the suggestions, I am going to wait a weekend, and brew all four test CALs next weekend. 

 

With respect to @RickBeer , I do agree with you.  This is one CAL with one LME each.  Given enough conditioning time, two of the kegs being ahead of the other two in fermenting and conditioning shouldn't matter.  Multiple weeks between batches, possibly, since there could be major variations in temperature, etc.  But the HME/LME product itself probably won't vary much unless it is very past "best by" date.  So, unless there is reason to not do so, I will brew all four at the same time next weekend.  And again @RickBeer, I respect and honor your opinions and value your input on this experiment.

 

Next, it will be four LBKs, not five.  I thougth about doing a "control", brewing a CAL without an LME.  I ruled that out.  It's not because of any problems making 5 LBK's in one day.  The reason for this Looney science experiment is to see what are the taste differences between the four LMEs.  My friends sampling these beers won't know much about Mr. Beer products. They will just know that the beers are very similar with a slight variation.  I mostly want to know more about this variation and the taste caused by the LME and how they compare to commercial beers they have had in the past.  Not how it compares with a "control".  Also, to get the "control" to the same level of ABV, I'd have to add more neutral fermenting sugar.  Not a problem, but I personally don't consider an HME and two boosters to be equal to an HME/LME/booster.  Just me.

 

Given an extra week gives me a bit more of a chance to plan and prepare.  First question is, will the S-05 be overkill, and affect attenuation.  All four LBKs will...one way or another...get the yeast of the same born-on date.  I did some research today on attenuation, and am slightly wondering if S-05 might be overkill, and cause a taste issue.  Yes, all kegs get the same yeast, but I also have to understand that the tasters will be drinking the beer.  Would S-05 be overkill for the one HME/LME/booster, or should I stick with one pack of regular Mr. Beer's yeast.  If I drop the S-05, I need to decide by Tuesday morning so that I can place an order for four packs of regular yeast....confident that they will have the same "born on" date.  Don't worry about shipping costs or Yoda is wasting money.  I can always order most stuff to justify ordering four packs of basic yeast.  I just want to have a good taste test of the LMEs.  Again, just me.

 

Yoder.

 

 

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Wow, i cant believe i most this whole thread. 

 

To the best of my knowledge:

05 is not necessarily overkill. It is possible to get off flavors by over pitching and under pitching , however, i trust fermentis yeast more than i trust coopers. Sorry. I stopped using the MRB yeast early in my brewing. Any LHBS should have coopers yeast if you go that route, youll save on shipping that way. Or just use 2 packets for 4 lbks. 1/2 in each. 

 

I would also like to say that this is your experiment, your money, your decisions. You do whatever the hell you want to do

 

that being said... CAL does kinda suck without major upgrades. Just read the description or each LME and youll know what each batch will taste like. I think in the end youll have 8 gallons of mediocre beer. 

 

Anyway. Ive done tons of experiments. Some made sense, some not so much. I was curious, so i brewed it. Screw you if you dont like it. Someone on this forum once said "if you dont brew it, who will" and ive taken that to heart. There might be 100s of us on this forum who benefit from this experiment when you report back. Or maybe just you. Either way, what you brew is up to you my friend 

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21 minutes ago, Creeps McLane said:

Wow, i cant believe i most this whole thread. 

 

To the best of my knowledge:

05 is not necessarily overkill. It is possible to get off flavors by over pitching and under pitching , however, i trust fermentis yeast more than i trust coopers. Sorry. I stopped using the MRB yeast early in my brewing. Any LHBS should have coopers yeast if you go that route, youll save on shipping that way. Or just use 2 packets for 4 lbks. 1/2 in each. 

 

I would also like to say that this is your experiment, your money, your decisions. You do whatever the hell you want to do

 

that being said... CAL does kinda suck without major upgrades. Just read the description or each LME and youll know what each batch will taste like. I think in the end youll have 8 gallons of mediocre beer. 

 

Anyway. Ive done tons of experiments. Some made sense, some not so much. I was curious, so i brewed it. Screw you if you dont like it. Someone on this forum once said "if you dont brew it, who will" and ive taken that to heart. There might be 100s of us on this forum who benefit from this experiment when you report back. Or maybe just you. Either way, what you brew is up to you my friend 

 

Thanks, @Creeps McLane.  I appreciate your input.  Yes, CAL does suck without an upgrade.  But, what would it, plus an upgrade, taste like?.  Not a great beer, but perhaps a good beer with.........?  That's my thesis to go from Freshman to Sophomore (in other words, I'm still in my first year of brewing).  For the record I did read on what Mr. Beer's team said about the LME's.  And I trust what they say.  But, I feel that in order to advance to the next level of brewing, I need to study, learn and research.  To me, this experiment is "research". 

 

You said you have done "tons of experiments".  I have only done a hundred pounds or two.  And for the record I am right now drinking a failed experiment.  This adventure is another experiment for me, and I thought I would share it with my friends here.

 

8 gallons of mediocre beer....yep.  no doubt.  Waste of time and product, probably.  Something for my friends to drink by the pool, okay.  A means to get rid of some product......well, why should it sit on the shelf.  I won't be brewing anymore during the summer anyways, so might as well use it. 

 

My first ever beer that I brewed back in September of last year tasted like sour green apple.  A beer that I brewed back in January, per my friend Lee, was "phenomenal" (Mr. Beer's Belgian Blanc).  Some of my beers that will be ready in May are probably rather good.  I'm learning by reading and doing.  This is an experiment on "doing".  If I'm annoying anyone with my posts........sorry.....please ignore them.  These are the rants of an old geezer.  Unless the folks ta Mr. Beer object, I will still post my studies online.

 

 

 

 

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I don't think anyone's getting annoyed by these posts.  And if they are they need to call the police so they can arrest the guy that's forcing them at gunpoint to read them. :)  I for one look forward to reading the results.  If they're bad, I'll have learned something.  If they're good, I'll have learned something.

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11 hours ago, MiniYoda said:

... Would S-05 be overkill for the one HME/LME/booster, or should I stick with one pack of regular Mr. Beer's yeast.

 

Yoder.

The recipe I just brewed, 1776 Ale, had an OG of 1.042 and an anticipated ABV of 4.2, and Mr. Beer recommended Safale US-05 on that one. It seems to me that your CAL plus LME would have similar numbers, so the 05 would not be overkill. Plus you have it on hand, might as well use it unless there's a reason not to.

 

One other thought: If you agree with Creeps that you're likely to end up with a truckload of mediocre beer, why not throw a packet of Cascades into each brew. Might bring it up a notch above mediocre.

 

Jim

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Thanks, jasbo.  I'm not worried about mediocre beer.  I'm more interested in the flavor of the LMEs and how they compare to each other.  I have some very good beers conditioning right now that will be ready in time for pool season.  And after one or two very good Mr. Beer's beer on a warm day by the pool, a few mediocre beers won't matter anyways.  Rather, they might be refreshing,

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Getting everything ready (more mentally) for tomorrow's brew session.  I say more "mentally" because I've never made 4 LBK's in one day.  Lots of washing in between each round (want no transfer of flavor from one batch to another).  What scares me even more than brewing 4 LBKs tomorrow is the bottling on Friday 19th (20 days of fermenting).  I might just take that day off work, because washing/sanitizing/filling 88-92 bottles will be an all-day experience.  I always prep 22-23 bottles per batch.  Perhaps too many, but I'd rather have them and not need them, than need them and not have them.  Yes, I could delay bottling to the following Saturday, and have a full 21 days of fermenting, but hey.........if I do it Friday, I get a day off work!

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2 hours ago, MiniYoda said:

Getting everything ready (more mentally) for tomorrow's brew session.  I say more "mentally" because I've never made 4 LBK's in one day.  Lots of washing in between each round (want no transfer of flavor from one batch to another).  What scares me even more than brewing 4 LBKs tomorrow is the bottling on Friday 19th (20 days of fermenting).  I might just take that day off work, because washing/sanitizing/filling 88-92 bottles will be an all-day experience.  I always prep 22-23 bottles per batch.  Perhaps too many, but I'd rather have them and not need them, than need them and not have them.  Yes, I could delay bottling to the following Saturday, and have a full 21 days of fermenting, but hey.........if I do it Friday, I get a day off work!

 

This may have been brought up as an idea for your bottle washing pain, but if the labels on the bottles have already been taken off, I just throw them in my dishwasher to sanitize them (I don't add any cleaner, just the normal cycle).  I've had NO issues whatsoever doing it that way.  I can fit easily 48 bottles if not more at a time.  Just a thought to save you some time from having to wash EACH....INDIVIDUAL....BOTTLE....

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All bottles are label free.  As soon as I drink a commercial bottle, I rinse it out completely, take the label off, and hang it on a bottling tree.  I'm hesitant right now to use dish washer to either wash or sanitize the bottles. Someone on here suggested a tool to spray sanitizer in the bottle, which I'm considering.

 

Edit

found the link

 

https://www.amazon.com/Sulfiter-Midwest-Homebrewing-Winemaking-Supplies/dp/B013S1RZLY

 

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19 minutes ago, MiniYoda said:

All bottles are label free.  As soon as I drink a commercial bottle, I rinse it out completely, take the label off, and hang it on a bottling tree.  I'm hesitant right now to use dish washer to either wash or sanitize the bottles. Someone on here suggested a tool to spray sanitizer in the bottle, which I'm considering.

 

Edit

found the link

 

https://www.amazon.com/Sulfiter-Midwest-Homebrewing-Winemaking-Supplies/dp/B013S1RZLY

 

 

Suit yourself.  I've been doing it for a long time and haven't had any issues doing it that way.  At least on my dishwasher there's a light that says "Sanitize" during the cycle, but most dishwasher's get hot enough to kill any bacteria or residual beer left in the bottle. Just my 2 cents.

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The more I think about your idea of sanitizing in the dishwasher, the more.........I'm thinking about the idea.

 

Wash all the bottles by hand (routine shake, 10 minute wait, routine shake), rinse out completely, then put them all in the dish washer and do another rinse (no soap) and sanitize cycle.  Could save me some time.................

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Yeah, do what you feel you need to do.  I'm just saying I've saved myself LOADS of time by just putting the bottles in the dishwasher.  I do a quick rinse before I put them in there, but that's it. 

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The decision has been made.  Since there are no negative comments, I will proceed to use your suggestion for tonight and all future bottlings.  Obviously, only for sanitizing glass, and not washing or anything involving PET.  I'll use that tonight, as I have two kegs to empty out

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Again, thanks for the suggestion.  48 bottles in the dish washer after wash, wait, wash and rinse.  Sadly, the dish washer that my land lord installed only allows "sanitize" if you run a full cycle.  Tired to do sanitize with 1 hour wash, but no dice.  So, I'm stuck for a couple of hours or so while the dish washer does a full cycle to get the sanitize.  No biggie.  There's movies on my friend's Plex server to watch.

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Brew day.  4 kegs of beer.  No big deal, not like I have a life anyways.

 

edit

 

Done.  Yes, 5 hours later, but I just got back from eating out, and I took my time doing the brewing. Still I almost mucked up...twice.  I took a reading on the robust, and it came out WAY too high.  Turns out, I didn't fill it up to the keg's level 2.  Once I did, the number came in correctly.  Also, on the Smooth batch I grabbed a jug to fill it up to level 2, and it was the sanitizer water for the next LBK.  I calmly put it down, and grabbed the correct bottle of spring water, and filled it with the correct fluid.  Again, ALMOST mucked up, but I think all went well.

 

I did take OG readings, and I will take FG readings, but I won't publish the results.  Multiple reasons, First, I'm not going for alcohol, or as I call it, "chasing rainbows".  Also, I'm using Safale 05 instead of regular dry yeast, which might (or might not) make it different than the regular yeast.  Finally, there might be an expected final ABV, and if I publish that a batch didn't make it as expected, then I could worry that something didn't go right.  Did I not clean the can of HME enough?  Did I not read the fractometer correctly?  Honestly, alcohol isn't the goal, flavor is.  I should be very close between the four, and within expected results.

 

The brew house (aka upstairs apartment) is a nice chilly 65 degrees for the weekend.  Doubt I can sustain that...might make this experiment overly priced due to the electric bill.  But for the first 48-72 hours, the air temp will be 65, and the wort temp will be very closely monitored to try to keep it at 65.  After that, I will slowly bring the air and the wort to 68,,,,,,,slowly

 

Now, I'm going to take an afternoon nap.  chat with y'alls later

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7 hours ago, MiniYoda said:

Also, on the Smooth batch I grabbed a jug to fill it up to level 2, and it was the sanitizer water for the next LBK.  I calmly put it down, and grabbed the correct bottle of spring water, and filled it with the correct fluid.  Again, ALMOST mucked up, but I think all went well.

 

To say you would not be the first person to do that would be a big lie.  I haven't, but others have posted that.

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On ‎4‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 7:14 PM, MiniYoda said:

Again, thanks for the suggestion.  48 bottles in the dish washer after wash, wait, wash and rinse.  Sadly, the dish washer that my land lord installed only allows "sanitize" if you run a full cycle.  Tired to do sanitize with 1 hour wash, but no dice.  So, I'm stuck for a couple of hours or so while the dish washer does a full cycle to get the sanitize.  No biggie.  There's movies on my friend's Plex server to watch.

 

Yeah, that's the only down side, but I usually throw them in the dishwasher when I have to go do something else.  When I first started doing the dishwasher way I threw the bottles in right before I was going to bottle and had to wait until it finished.  I learned from that and thought I could just multi-task or plan ahead by throwing them in right away in the morning.

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Using the dishwasher to clean or sanitize your bottles is a bad idea.  Why?

 

1) It doesn't clean the insides adequately.  Nor does it rinse them adequately.  

 

2) It sprays rinse agent in the bottles (if you have it).  You don't want that.

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the bottles were completely washed on the inside with the standard Oxyclean stuff recommended on this site.  Then thoroughly rinsed out before they were put in the dish washer.  I ran a regular cycle on the dish washer *without* any detergent or rinsing agent, just straight water.

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That should be fine, unless the dish washer automatically dispenses rinsing agent as many do.

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1 hour ago, RickBeer said:

Using the dishwasher to clean or sanitize your bottles is a bad idea.  Why?

 

1) It doesn't clean the insides adequately.  Nor does it rinse them adequately.  

 

2) It sprays rinse agent in the bottles (if you have it).  You don't want that.

 

I disagree.  I've done this method and haven't had an issue yet.  I don't put any agents in there either.

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6 hours ago, Bach's Brews said:

 

I disagree.  I've done this method and haven't had an issue yet.  I don't put any agents in there either.

Sometimes the best thing to do is keep your methods to yourself. Or just post them past 7pm. By then the rick bear should be sleeping and youll get no grief. 

 

I wash bottles in the dishwasher also. However, it is simply a quick fix. If i just dont have time to wash them, i rinse them, dishwasher them then put them in a box marked "dirty" so i know not to use them without cleaning first. I just use the rinse cycle cuz im impatient and usually my wife is too with 20 beer bottles on the counter 

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Four kegs in the fridge, cold crashing;  I'm off work Friday, and plan the whole day bottling.

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11 hours ago, MiniYoda said:

Four kegs in the fridge, cold crashing;  I'm off work Friday, and plan the whole day bottling.

The first thing I'm curious about is did the four batches exhibit different behaviors? Was one more active than the others, something like that?

 

We always hear that all fermentations are different, so was that your experience here? I wouldn't think the different LMEs would cause different fermentations, but who knows?

 

Jim

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I didn't notice difference in behavior, but I didn't watch the kegs like a hawk.  I didn't expect any major difference in behavior based on just the difference of the LME.  If I had put more LME/DME/Grain in one vs another, then the behavior would have been different.

 

I monitored the temps from time to time, and there was some foaming, but none overflowed.  Temp was kept at 68 degrees plus/minus one degree.  I'll check the final gravity tomorrow when I bottle, but I don't foresee any major differences.  The OG on all four were within expected numbers and very close to each other (I don't have the exact numbers with me right now).

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Unlikely, and more unlikely that he knows because he'd have to be staring at them (not saying he wasn't...).

 

All he varied here was the LME pack that he added as you noted.  Therefore, every one had the same starting gravity, and they were all fermented together at the same temp with the same yeast.  So likely would be identical.

 

I also suspect that if he truly does a blind taste test (has to be truly blind because there will be color differences), he probably won't notice any difference due to the small amount of LME in each, although his brain knows the differences.  Having someone else taste them, again BLIND, might yield more insight into differences.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, RickBeer said:

Unlikely, and more unlikely that he knows because he'd have to be staring at them (not saying he wasn't...).

 

All he varied here was the LME pack that he added as you noted.  Therefore, every one had the same starting gravity, and they were all fermented together at the same temp with the same yeast.  So likely would be identical.

 

I also suspect that if he truly does a blind taste test (has to be truly blind because there will be color differences), he probably won't notice any difference due to the small amount of LME in each, although his brain knows the differences.  Having someone else taste them, again BLIND, might yield more insight into differences.

 

 

 

Nope...wasn't staring at them, and didn't have a camera monitoring them all the time either.  I do have a life  :D

The key to the experiment was that just the LME changed.  All had the same HME and yeast, and were in the same room temp.  They started out with OG's that were within .003 high to low, and the temp of the wart was within .5 degrees each time I checked, so that's about as close as I could get things.

 

Yes, I will know which is which.  I will use gold caps on each bottle, and use a sharpie to write the letter G, P, R, S.  No one (other than us) will know what the letter means.  Yes, there will be color differences, and the only way to keep this from being a factor in judging taste would be to drink from the bottle or put a blind fold on the taster.  Even using an opaque Solo cup won't help since you can see the color from the top. 

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Blindfold the tasters.  I am thinking there won't be much of a difference in the pale and smooth but the robust and golden should be noticable.

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BREAK TIME!!!!!!!!!!!!

 - This (early) morning I washed and rinsed 44 bottles
 - While they were sanitizing in the dish washer, I ran some errands and ate lunch, and drank some rather interesting beers.
 - Came home, and bottled Pale and Golden.  Each took 20 bottles plus one at the end.  I consider this the "trub bottle", even though there was almost no trub in the bottle.  Cold crashing helped.  Had 2 extra empty bottles.
 - Washed/rinsed another 40 bottles (the extra 2 were still in the dish washer not touched, and going through another sanitize cycle).
 - 42 total bottles are in the dish washer.  It'll take about 2 to 2.5 hours to run the wash/sanitize cycle on the dish washer.  BTW, no, there is NO detergent in the dish washer.  Strictly water then a hot sanitize cycle.
 - Probably around 2000hrs EDT tonight, I'll bottle Robust and Smooth.

 

     While I'm waiting, I took samples of Robust and Smooth and compared them to the Golden and Pale that are bottled. Three of them came in right on the money.  From Mr. Beer's site, I expected about 3.1% for the HME, about 1.0 for the LME and about another percent for the booster.  I'm not going to release the exact numbers, because honestly, this isn't about chasing rainbows.  It's about the flavor and how I can use the LMEs for future recipes.

     Based on the final numbers 3 out of 4 were very close to what was expected for ABV.  Not sure why, but Pale came out a few decimal points lower, and a bit cidery.  I'm not worried about Pale, because it was the first one that I bottled.  I had problems reading the refractometer, and the taste could have been hampered due to what I ate for lunch (don't ask).  After I bottled Pale, I thought.....should I recalibrate the refractometer?  Sure enough, using a few drops of plain water, the blue line was a hair off.  I made the adjustment, but by then the whole batch of Pale was bottled.

     These 80 bottles (20 per recipe) will be carbonating/conditioning at about 70 degrees until July 15.  I decided to give them 8 weeks just to make sure that all is as best as it can be.  Plus I'm hoping to get rid of any off-flavors of Pale, which I really don't think are there.  I might crack open one each on July 8, just to see how things are.

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All 80 bottles are in the conditioning cabinet.  Not counting the trub bottles.  I think I wore the <CUSS WORD> out of my bottle crimper.  And considering I just spent slightly more than 14 hours washing/sanitizing/filling four LBKs, I'm a wee bit on the tired side of life.  Time for a bourbon and cola.

 

Sad that I have four empty LBKs, but such as it is now that the brewery is about to close (still have one Beauty and the Yeast, and one 5.5 gallon Chug-a-Lugger fermenting for two more weeks).

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17 minutes ago, RickBeer said:

Cannot use refractometer once fermentation starts...

 

I'm going to have to research your comment.  Not challenging it, just need to research it. 

 

I've only used a refractometer.  I take a Brix OG and FG measurement, and using online calculators, I figure out what is the approximate ABV.  There's adjustments on the FG due to alcohol, and I'm aware of that, but I'm going with "approximate" ABV, not exact.

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still kinda sorta confused by your comment..........

 

I take a refractometer reading before I pitch the yeast, and another one 3 week later just before I bottle.  Not sure why you said "once fermentation starts". 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, MiniYoda said:

still kinda sorta confused by your comment..........

 

I take a refractometer reading before I pitch the yeast, and another one 3 week later just before I bottle.  Not sure why you said "once fermentation starts". 

 

 

Reading before pitching, yes. As soon as you pitch your yeast alcohol can now be present thus making your refractometer useless without an online calculator, which youre using thus making the way youre doing things perfectly legit. Keep on keeping on.

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not doubting you @Creeps McLane  Just wondering how this conversation started.  Never suggested that I took a reading during fermentation.  my readings have always been before pitching yeast and just before bottling.  just wondering why @rickbeer thought otherwise

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36 minutes ago, MiniYoda said:

not doubting you @Creeps McLane  Just wondering how this conversation started.  Never suggested that I took a reading during fermentation.  my readings have always been before pitching yeast and just before bottling.  just wondering why @rickbeer thought otherwise

Because ideally you would use your refractometer before pitching and hydrometer before bottling. Rick was prob assuming you were not aware you need a converter during and after fermentation. Im assuming.  He wants to make sure people know things

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I am doing same as miniYoda. I can't deal with hydrometers even though I have 2.

I figure if you also know the target ABV you can back into the FG BRIX using the online calcs to see when you are done. ((not 100% accurate but).

 

Recently I found the Baltic Porter was not done fermenting after 23 weeks. I had issues with that before making over carbonated bottle and S-05 is supposed to be OK at low 60s. Now, 3 days later after warming to ~70 deg and shaking it a bit, it is closer to target endpoint but I will give it a bit more since is still low.

2 Other brews are also making progress but not there yet. Not all of them like the 60s. Maybe I need to play Beatles records at them or something.

Does yeast care what genre of music you play at it?

 

Of course with summer coming on the AC is making the basement cold. SO I will have to brew lagers now.

 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Nickfixit said:

 

 

 

2 Other brews are also making progress but not there yet. Not all of them like the 60s. Maybe I need to play Beatles records at them or something.

Does yeast care what genre of music you play at it?

 

 

 

 

 

I find that Lager yeast like long, slow music like 40's/50 big band/crooner music  As for Ale, it varies between late 60's classic rock to 80's MTV music.  Haven't yet found yeast that likes disco.

 

 

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1 hour ago, MiniYoda said:

 

I find that Lager yeast like long, slow music like 40's/50 big band/crooner music  As for Ale, it varies between late 60's classic rock to 80's MTV music.  Haven't yet found yeast that likes disco.

 

 

Probably California Common yeast would like that.

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On ‎5‎/‎19‎/‎2017 at 9:48 PM, RickBeer said:

Cannot use refractometer once fermentation starts...

 

@RickBeer, Doveryai, no proveryai

 

:D

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Unfortunately, no, but ironically, some of it will happen this weekend.  I put one of each bottle in the fridge last night, so that tomorrow (Saturday), I'll have them in for the normal 2 days.  I will also sample another set after just a few hours in the fridge.  Reason is because to me, the colder the beer, the less malty it tastes (and I don't have a good sense of taste).  Tonight I will be taking with me another set to the friends I am meeting at the game, who have helped me evaluate my beers in the past.  I still need to get a set to the guy with the pool (and the 16 year old, which started a set of posts on this thread).  I have about 20-21 bottles of each, so I'll have enough to go around.

 

I'll report back on my tasting Saturday, and again if/when I get it from the couple I'm meeting tonight.

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On ‎5‎/‎18‎/‎2017 at 10:17 AM, BDawg62 said:

Blindfold the tasters.  I am thinking there won't be much of a difference in the pale and smooth but the robust and golden should be noticable.

 

Reviewing the comments made on this thread as I type up the results.  @BDawg62, you are correct.  Not much difference between P and S as I drank them.  Final results soon.

 

 

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Typed up a long <CENSORED> novel of my opinion on the four beers, then threw it out.  Discovered that it could be done with a summary than excessive detail.

 

Upfront, I realized a week ago that I made a massive mistake on this experiment.  If I were a true scientist, I would be banned from being a scientist.  I didn't make a control.  Had I done this experiment *correctly*, I would have made a fifth LBK, one with just a can of CAL and enough booster to equate the alcohol effect of the LME.  That way I would have the control to know what the CAL should taste like, and each bottle of the LME to tell the difference.

 

That said, all four beers came out as expected with two problems.  Mr. Beer's site describes the LMEs and what to expect.  I read the pages for each LME, and the flavor/aroma were spot on with their description.  By doing this experiment, no only did I learn about the LMEs themselves, but I also learned two mistakes that I made. 

 

First, I over carbonated these beers.  The mouthfeel had a bit too much carbonation to it.  Why?  I was putting a full sugar cube in each bottle.  Not a huge problem, but something I need to work on when the brewery opens in late September/early October.  Until then, I will read, read, read on carbonating bottles with regular sugar instead of sugar cubes, and how to determine the proper amount of sugar per recipe.  The second problem was the SRM.  They all four came out darker than expected.  Not much, but they were darker.  I noticed this on a lot of my other batches.  I'm going research why a beer is darker than expected, but I'm open to comments on this one. Could it be boil time/temp?  Fermenting temp?  Conditioning time/temp?

 

Overall, to me, Golden is a great wheat LME.  It was a bit tart as expected, and that would be perfect for wheat beers with tart fruits such as tart cherries, raspberries or fresh cranberries.  Robust is definitely great for coffee based beers.....just that I don't drink coffee, but the chocolate taste was there too.  I will experiment with it when doing porters and stouts.  Smooth was good, but again I'm not a coffee person, so I need to look into this one more.  My winner, Mr. Pale.  Think your favorite over-produced American light beer, then add *flavor* to it.  That's how that beer came out.  Very good.  If I want to make a light beer, then add more malt flavor, that's the one to pick.

 

I going to try another round with less time in the fridge, to bring out more malt flavor.  Also hopefully will get results from my baseball friends who have one of each.  They are both die-hard Miller Lite drinkers, so not sure if they will enjoy any of these, but all I asked was that they gave their opinion of the malt enhancement.  I do welcome others to try this experiment, and post their results.

 

Mr. Green Thing.

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Ya know @MiniYoda .... dont discredit your findings based on methods just yet. The title of this thread says it all... it is an experiment. Results are results, even if the parameters were a bit different from what was laid out in the theory phase. What you have done is a series of tests and trials with different materials in order to find out what each one truly does/how it reacts within a set of parameters. You did learn several things from this as you admitted to... you learned about the LMEs...... such as tastes, how each one tastes and which styles you want to put which one with. You also learned which one you thought tasted the best for your palate. You learned you need to adjust sugar amounts when using different delivery methods (loose vs cube vs type of sugar) to achieve the carbonation amount you wish to have for each style/recipe you brew. By what you have said, there are still results to yet come in from your buddies as well as more testing with refrigeration length in terms of obtaining the malt flavor you wish to have and if it will have any effect on the malt flavor at all. You good sir are doing what any good scientist does. I commend you and raise my pint to you! Keep up the experimenting until you find what you seek. 

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Thanks, @hotrod3539  While it was meant to be an experiment in taste, it also turn out to be lesson in what I was doing wrong.  Don't get me wrong, the beers were good tasting, and I am not going to toss them out.  I did learn that

 

1)  Four LBKs in one day is a LOT of work.  Doing a fifth LBK as a control.....I have respect for those who all-grain all-day

2)  Mr. Beer's LME's aren't bad.  Had another Pale, and still liked it, although not "chilled" enough

3)  With just a Mr. Beer's CAL, you can make a fairly drinkable beer

4)  Study, and learn, and next year's beers will be better

 

MiniYoda......."See You, In September"

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On 7/7/2017 at 2:25 PM, MiniYoda said:

Unfortunately, no, but ironically, some of it will happen this weekend.  I put one of each bottle in the fridge last night, so that tomorrow (Saturday), I'll have them in for the normal 2 days.  I will also sample another set after just a few hours in the fridge.  Reason is because to me, the colder the beer, the less malty it tastes (and I don't have a good sense of taste).  Tonight I will be taking with me another set to the friends I am meeting at the game, who have helped me evaluate my beers in the past.  I still need to get a set to the guy with the pool (and the 16 year old, which started a set of posts on this thread).  I have about 20-21 bottles of each, so I'll have enough to go around.

 

I'll report back on my tasting Saturday, and again if/when I get it from the couple I'm meeting tonight.

 

You should put your beer in the frig for 3 days.  Then, if you wan to drink it warmer than refrigerator temp (say 45 - 50 degrees), let it sit on the counter, unopened, for 20 minutes or so.  Then, open and pour it.  3 days is required for the beer to be properly carbonated.

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