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DrMJG

Question on Hops: addition or replace

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I am putting my Doppelbock into the brewing schedule now so I can give it the time it needs before Fashingabend. (6 months minimum lagering).  The kit comes with Hallertau hops.  I did notice that my favorite DB made by Sprecher uses the Mt. Hoot hops.  As I would like to try to recreate Sprecher, if I go with the Mt. Hood hops, do I replace the given Hallertau or to I add the Mt. Hood to the other hops.  And, if I add, do you suggest just adding the additional hops during the production of the wort or would you add them for the whole fermentation process?  This would be my first major variation from the ingredients given in a MB recipe. My kit has not arrived yet and I have ordered the MT. Hood hops.

 

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Based on what I'm seeing, Mt. Hood hops is a hybrid of Hallertau, with a stronger Alpha Acid (so it will have a bit more bitterness).  Per the BJCP guidelines, "Hop bitterness varies from moderate to moderately low, but always allows malt to dominate the flavor."  While you can substitute Hallertau for Mt. Hood, I don't know if you would stay to style....it might come out hoppier.  The hoppier flavor might be something you are wanting, so feel free to substitute.  It would be a replace, and not combine both, or else you go very hoppier. 

 

And those who know, please feel free to correct me.

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In conversations with Randy Sprecher from a few decades ago, he spoke of his doppelbock and Bavarian Black as bringing out full maltiness of a beer and good hops balance with not giving these beers a bitter taste.  While I last had Sprecher in 2000 (the beer at that time was fresh beer and almost impossible to find out of SE Wisconsin, I recall that as a hallmark. I suspect the maltiness of the dopplebock will somewhat mellow out the hops. Thanks for your reply

 

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1 hour ago, MiniYoda said:

so it will have a bit more bitterness

 

If boiled. If not, it won't add any at all.

 

2 hours ago, DrMJG said:

do I replace

 

I probably would just replace, because unless you're doing a hop boil of one sort or another, you'll kind of be piling aroma on top of aroma. Hop aroma is supposed to be "low to none," by BJCP standards.

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On 8/9/2017 at 0:55 PM, MRB Tim said:

 

If boiled. If not, it won't add any at all.

 

 

I probably would just replace, because unless you're doing a hop boil of one sort or another, you'll kind of be piling aroma on top of aroma. Hop aroma is supposed to be "low to none," by BJCP standards.

Not planning to boil, just adding to wart before transferring to LBK.  Will let the public now if it works

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I agree -

Based on this Doppelbock description - Hops for bitterness only - substitute the Mt Hood for the Hallertauer,

As it is with the 2x Oktoberfest HMEs, the bitterness is already on the high side for Doppelbock - and at the low end of ABV, and the color is up there.

To counter the higher bitterness, and be more into the ABV range, you could add a light malt pack   

( or 2 :-) or booster if happy with the bitterness).

 

 

Mr B Doppelbock

ABV (alc/vol): 7.4%

SRM (Color): 24

IBU (Bitterness): 42

 

Doppelbock

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Doppelbock is a very malty, highly alcoholic, "Doppel" or "Double" bock. By German law, any beer with a starting gravity of at least 18 plato (1.072) can be called "Doppelbock" regardless of color. Names of Dopelbocks often end in "-ator."

History

The Paulaner brewery in Munich created Doppelbock as a style. According to Wikipedia a group of Italian monks crossed the Alps to settle near Munich, eventually establishing the Pailaner brewery in 1634. They brewed a strong beer with local German influence that we now know as Doppelbock. The beer was first made available to the public in 1780 under the name Salvator. Other breweries soon followed suit also carrying the suffix "-ator" on many of their names.

Description

Full bodied, very malty beer. No hop aroma or flavor. Slight choc/roast flavor OK for darker versions. Low fruitiness, ester and diacytl. Amber to dark brown in color. Low to moderate carbonation.

Characteristics

  • Color Range: 6.0-25.0 SRM
  • Original Gravity Range: 1.072-1.120 SG
  • Final Gravity Range: 1.018-1.030 SG
  • Bitterness Range: 16.0-30.0 IBU
  • Alcohol by Volume Range: 7.0-12.0 %
  • Carbonation Range: 2.3-2.6 vols
  • BJCP Style Number: 5 C

Ingredients

  • Pale lager malts
  • Munich and Vienna malts to achieve desired color
  • Very little dark malts in dark versions only
  • German noble hops for bittering only
  • German lager yeast
  • Moderate water hardness
  • Decoction mash traditionally used
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You might also enjoy this page

http://brulosophy.com/2016/07/21/yeast-comparison-saflager-w-3470-vs-wlp833-german-bock-lager-exbeeriment-results/

:lol:

 

In terms of his experiment though I did not have his delay on Krausen with dry yeast. My 34/70 Lager I started last Sunday with 34/70 (11g in one LBK - yeast dated 2017) 4 hours and had peaked in 2-3 days.

A similar brew made concurrently using same HME (different hop treatment), used the Cooper's yeast - all 7g (dated 2014 and not refrigerated)  and had Krausen to match the 34/70 in 2 days and is lasting longer although all 3 are pretty much subsided by now. The one in the cooler (with icepacks) has a little more still, but surface only and smells real sulfury.  The Cooper's is lager yeast too (kind not specified.) The other 2 that are faster are going at 61-64 F which is the coolest I can get it.

They still get another 2 1/2 weeks before bottling with the last week at 70 if I can do that.

My 2 that are faster are sub 5% ABV beers and my longer one maybe low 5%'s so yours will be longer Krausening  with the higher ABV.

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3 hours ago, Nickfixit said:

I agree -

Based on this Doppelbock description - Hops for bitterness only - substitute the Mt Hood for the Hallertauer,

As it is with the 2x Oktoberfest HMEs, the bitterness is already on the high side for Doppelbock - and at the low end of ABV, and the color is up there.

To counter the higher bitterness, and be more into the ABV range, you could add a light malt pack   

( or 2 :-) or booster if happy with the bitterness).

 

 

Mr B Doppelbock

ABV (alc/vol): 7.4%

SRM (Color): 24

IBU (Bitterness): 42

 

So would you consider both HME AND booster or just booster?  or just HME?

 

 

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12 hours ago, DrMJG said:

So would you consider both HME AND booster or just booster?  or just HME?

So for upping the ABV, and countering the bitterness with malt I would add light malt then it won't darken too much. Each Mr Beer pack gets you about 1%.

So it really depends how strong you want it.

I think would add one light malt pack ==> 8.4%

But to be fair I have not made this, so I am going by "feel".

I also do not know what your beer preferences are - so I am trying to show tradeoffs so you can choose in the direction of your preference.

 

No matter what though, this beer will need a long time in bottle before it is mature ;)

Bottle time will also reduce the hop bitterness some.

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I am planning this to be drinkable in late Feb to Early march  The monks who first came up with this concoction often consumed this "liquid bread" as their only sustenance during the lent season (liter each at lunch and dinner).  While I do not plan on that route for redeeming my sins, the thought of doing it is tempting!

Looking forward to creating my first "-ator" brew. (Based on the fresh version of this I have had in Munich, their ABV often tops 10-12%.) Prosit!

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58 minutes ago, DrMJG said:

I am planning this to be drinkable in late Feb to Early march  The monks who first came up with this concoction often consumed this "liquid bread" as their only sustenance during the lent season (liter each at lunch and dinner).  While I do not plan on that route for redeeming my sins, the thought of doing it is tempting!

Looking forward to creating my first "-ator" brew. (Based on the fresh version of this I have had in Munich, their ABV often tops 10-12%.) Prosit!

If you are happy with and are looking for the "-ATOR" rather than "-ator" brew then  I would add both the light malt and the booster.

So adding this up.......

Base brew = 7.4 ABV

Add 2 packs booster + 1.2%

Add a malt pack + 1%

So you could reasonably get 9.6%  adding both which seems in the good .

 

I can't find a max ABV tolerance for 34/70 but it likely is good.

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On 8/10/2017 at 2:17 PM, Nickfixit said:

If you are happy with and are looking for the "-ATOR" rather than "-ator" brew then  I would add both the light malt and the booster.

So adding this up.......

Base brew = 7.4 ABV

Add 2 packs booster + 1.2%

Add a malt pack + 1%

So you could reasonably get 9.6%  adding both which seems in the good .

 

I can't find a max ABV tolerance for 34/70 but it likely is good.

It will be on the stronger side, as I have a number of transgressions I must do penance for this Lent. Hopfen und Malt! Gott erhalt's! (Through Hops and Malt, God sustains)

Unknown.jpeg

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12 hours ago, DrMJG said:

It will be on the stronger side, as I have a number of transgressions I must do penance for this Lent.  Gott erzalt durch Hops und Malt!

Well you could also go for VERY malty and use a malt pack instead of the Booster............ you might even give yourself  more trangressability.

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7 hours ago, Nickfixit said:

VERY malty

 

Well, that's a pretty good description of Doppels, in my experience.

 

 

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It's in the LBK!  I used the German Doppelbok recipe and adjusted the following ways: I used Mt. Hood Hops, one LME-Robust and One DME Light and added booster.  My OG (did a few times to make sure I was reading correctly came to at 1.08 so I am expecting tis, when done, to have a high enough ABV to help one see God and repent for their sins.  The range of temps I have it to is about 58º,  I will try to bring it down a bit.  I will ferment for about 21-28 days and carbonate and condition until late February for Fashingabend.   Thanks to all who gave their input and I am already planning the next batch. 

Unknown.jpeg

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13 minutes ago, DrMJG said:

It's in the LBK!  I used the German Doppelbok recipe and adjusted the following ways: I used Mt. Hood Hops, one LME-Robost and One DME Light and added booster.  My OG (did a few times to make sure I was reading correctly came to at 1.08 so I am expecting tis, when done, to have a high enough ABV to help one see God and repent for their sins.  The rages of tim I have it to is about 58º,  I will try to bring it down a bit.  I will forget for about 21-28 days and carbonate and condition until late February for Fashingabend.   Thanks to all who gave their input and I am already planning the next batch. 

Unknown.jpeg

 

"The Rages of Tim"???  That's either slang I'm utterly unfamiliar with or an amazing autocorrect!

 

 

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27 minutes ago, DrMJG said:

rages of tim

 

 

GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHI'M SO ANGRY

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Between my arthritis and our friend spell check, I will provide MUCH unintended humor over time, or over Tim!

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At 3 weeks, it seemed as if it was not ready for the next phase of carbonization and bottle conditioning. Will go one more week in the LBK. Gut reaction is it will match a classic.      -ATOR style in all aspects at it hibernates until Fashing. Based on where it is now, I may have to hide from friends!

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"seemed as if it was not ready for the next phase..."  Based on what?  Did you do a hydrometer reading?  I have never had a brew have any reason to go more than 21 days, and don't know of anyone else that has either.

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35 minutes ago, RickBeer said:

Did you do a hydrometer reading?

Agreed here!  A hydrometer is a great investment and if you take care of it, it can last a long time.  I am only on my 2nd in 7.5 years now (though I know people who seem to break theirs monthly it seems lol). It's also something worth having a back of for too, just in case, and I finally did that a few weeks ago.

 

37 minutes ago, RickBeer said:

I have never had a brew have any reason to go more than 21 days, and don't know of anyone else that has either.

Most of mine, be that 30 gallons or 58 gallons, hit FG in 5-7 days (though, I usually let them sit for 10 days... just my routine). Again, I agree here.  I have never had a reason to let a brew go more than 21 days. Even with a slow acting yeast, for me that seems to be WLP-001, 14 is pushing it really.  Most of my beers I can have brewed, fermented, DH'd, cold crashed and kegged within 21 days.

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My hydrometer reading is a tad under 1.03 and there is a very slight taste that I have never noticed before. But, as I never deviated from a basic recipe before, just thought I'd ask. So I will bottle tonight or tomorrow AM. I do trust your experiences, my friends!

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You may want to review this video on how to read a hydrometer.   Your reading is likely 1.003, distilled water is 1.000.  1.03 would be a beer that is not close to done or started.  

 

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Hydrometer read correctly; arthritic fingers did not type correctly,  I am at 1.003, giving me an ABV about 10.5.  So brew is finished.  I am bottling tonight an putting it to sleep in 70 degree dark room until Fashing in early March.  Thanks for you help. And yes, RickBeer, that is a great video!

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22 minutes ago, DrMJG said:

Hydrometer read correctly; arthritic fingers did not type correctly,  I am at 1.003, giving me an ABV about 10.5.  So brew is finished.  I am bottling tonight an putting it to sleep in 70 degree dark room until Fashing in early March.  Thanks for you help. And yes, RickBeer, that is a great video!

I would leave it in the 70 degree room for about 4 weeks and then if possible find a cooler spot.  Your beer will benefit from being stored at a cooler temperature for final conditioning.  If you have a basement with temps in the low 60s that would be better.

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4 hours ago, BDawg62 said:

I would leave it in the 70 degree room for about 4 weeks and then if possible find a cooler spot.  Your beer will benefit from being stored at a cooler temperature for final conditioning.  If you have a basement with temps in the low 60s that would be better.

All my beers except those in the fridge are in my 65 deg basement;)

 

 

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On 9/12/2017 at 1:17 PM, BDawg62 said:

I would leave it in the 70 degree room for about 4 weeks and then if possible find a cooler spot.  Your beer will benefit from being stored at a cooler temperature for final conditioning.  If you have a basement with temps in the low 60s that would be better.

Unfortunately, I love in Arizona.  Today it cooled off to 92!  No basement. So 70 is coolest spot for now.  We will have some cooler days until March!

 

18056732_10155338104788534_2584334787717432975_n.jpg

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On 9/12/2017 at 3:54 PM, DrMJG said:

Hydrometer read correctly; arthritic fingers did not type correctly,  I am at 1.003, giving me an ABV about 10.5.  So brew is finished.  I am bottling tonight an putting it to sleep in 70 degree dark room until Fashing in early March.  Thanks for you help. And yes, RickBeer, that is a great video!

 

German Dopplebock is two cans of Oktoberfest (6.2%) ABV, plus 1 LME for 7.3% total.  You used another LME for 8.4% total, plus a booster (1/2 or 1 depending on whether it was old big packs or new small packs.  Regardless, you should not be at 10.5%.  1.080 - 1.003  x 1.3125 = 10.1% if those are the right numbers.

 

Anyway, you should plan on letting this condition for about 6 months.

 

 

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As this beer is to be consumed, according to the monks, as a lenten beverage as part of a fast to repent for sins (Augustinian Monks drank one liter for lunch and one for dinner) for religious reasons I will long lager it!

Unknown-1.jpeg

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