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Creeps McLane

What da hey is up with my beer?

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 Made a 10 gallon batch of stout months ago. 5 gallons was kegged and consumed, 5 gallons had 2 oz of cocoa nibs added at dry hopping which were soaked in vodka for 3 weeks. The 5 gallons of cocoa Stout is still hanging around cuz I can't drink it. It's not undrinkable, I just can't drink it, if that makes sense.

 

No matter what PSI I set the regulator at, it SPRAYS out of the keg, like violently. So I bleed the CO2, set the PSI super low and it doesn't matter, it's always foam. I checked to make sure the ins and out are hooked up correctly, it's all correct. This has been sitting in my keezer for a few months now like this. I pull the tap, 90% foam, 10% beer, if that. All the other taps work perfectly. That 10% of beer tastes fine. It tastes like someone took it and ran it through a blender, but it doesn't taste diseased. 

 

I checked the keg for leaks, it all looks good. I hooked up a different beer to that tap, tap works fine.

 

to eliminate the keezer all together last night I took that keg and put it in the kegerator and tried the picnic tap, all foam. What's kinda funny is it was foam for approx 3 seconds, then just beer. Stop the pour and I could see the beer in the line all turn to foam. Start another pour, all foam, then all beer. 

 

Whats weird about this this is that the keg seems to carb it self. I'll set the PSI to 10 and it'll spray out as if I have it set to 30. The problem has to be the keg

 

i set this down two days ago, purged my tank and walked away. Today I walked downstairs and poured, it sprayed like crazy. It carbs itself... 😷 🍻 

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I made the Sticky Wicket Stout a few months back and went a little overboard with the chocolate malt. The recipe calls for 2 oz and I put in the whole 4 oz. I know this shares only slight similarities with your beer, but this batch was full of geysers. The whole batch. It never settled down. I was afraid I had an infection, but nothing tasted off. I just don't know if there is a correlation between the overcarbing and the chocolate, but it makes me wonder if there is a such thing as too much. 

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26 minutes ago, Big Sarge said:

I made the Sticky Wicket Stout a few months back and went a little overboard with the chocolate malt. The recipe calls for 2 oz and I put in the whole 4 oz. I know this shares only slight similarities with your beer, but this batch was full of geysers. The whole batch. It never settled down. I was afraid I had an infection, but nothing tasted off. I just don't know if there is a correlation between the overcarbing and the chocolate, but it makes me wonder if there is a such thing as too much. 

 

There is no correlation that I can think of. Chocolate malt has no fermentable sugars for the yeast to eat. It sounds like it may have been infected somewhere in the process or was possibly bottled too early or had too much sugar added.

 

@Creeps McLane, you may want to test your regulator. I could be completely wrong here, but it sounds like it may be faulty. This can happen if it has no check valve on the line and gets backed up with beer.

 

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11 minutes ago, MRB Josh R said:

 

There is no correlation that I can think of. Chocolate malt has no fermentable sugars for the yeast to eat. It sounds like it may have been infected somewhere in the process or was possibly bottled too early or had too much sugar added.

 

@Creeps McLane, you may want to test your regulator. I could be completely wrong here, but it sounds like it may be faulty. This can happen if it has no check valve on the line and gets backed up with beer.

 

Josh, thanks for the info. I was leaning towards an infection, maybe even in the bottles (but not all of them). I don't think it was an incomplete fermentation, as I've religiously gone 3 weeks at controlled temps. I've also used the standard 1/2 teaspoon per 12 oz glass bottle, which has never steered me wrong. To taste, I definitely think I went too far by throwing in the whole 4 oz of chocolate malt. It sucks trying to eliminate the variables of what could've gone wrong, especially when the process has been tried and true. I knew the chocolate malt lacked fermentable sugars, which threw me for more of a loop. Sadly enough, I drank my last SWS this past weekend, after 6 months bottled. 

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1 hour ago, MRB Josh R said:

 

There is no correlation that I can think of. Chocolate malt has no fermentable sugars for the yeast to eat. It sounds like it may have been infected somewhere in the process or was possibly bottled too early or had too much sugar added.

 

@Creeps McLane, you may want to test your regulator. I could be completely wrong here, but it sounds like it may be faulty. This can happen if it has no check valve on the line and gets backed up with beer.

 

Ok, so let me shed some more light. Im wondering if i should replace the gas line on tap 2. Reason being is that i think I remember carbing a keg and a splash of beer went into it. Maybe this infected it? But then all my beers would be infected cuz thats the line i always use to push the oxygen out of the keg

 

IMG_4747.thumb.JPG.2e87174afaae96fa08814ac23d4dd089.JPG

IMG_4748.thumb.JPG.14887f82698372875530c0b85e4db3c7.JPG

tank goes to regulator then to distributor then to kegs. Not sure how one tap could be goofy but the rest arent.

 

there has to be something, maybe it is infected and i just cant taste it. I soaked the nibs for 3 weeks in Fleishmans vodka and then used the nibs not the liquid. Anything wrong with that?

 

ps i like when @MRB Josh R chimes in. Puts me at ease

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I just tasted it. Not infected. I feel like i need to fill all my gallon growlers up with the growler filler and hopefully filling from the bottom will help a guy out.

 

@RickBeer yes i know i can just edit my previous posts instead of adding new posts. However, i feel each post is a new strand of thoughts thus deserving of a new post. 

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Last new post. I forgot to mention that while in the kegerator the kegs are not hooked up to gas. Its what i use for a fermentation chamber now. So, it was completely disconnect from the CO2 source, drained of CO2, nothing pouring from the picnic tap and then two days later i push the lever on the picnic tap (still no CO2) and that baby come spraying out like a mofo. 

 

So, what creates CO2 at 35 degrees when no CO2 is being supplied?

 

Incomplete fermentation? Doesnt taste like it. And that baby has been fermenting like crazy for quite a long time. And again, in the cold

 

maybe the keezer was colder and the CO2 escaped into the head space? Possible. 

 

I was wondering if the dip tube is on the wrong side and the gas inlet was pulling the beer. Pretty far fetched. 

 

Maybe theres air being leaked in at some point causing the foaming? 

 

Infection... seems the most plausible yet there are no off flavors. Its a good tasting beer. I WANT TO DRINK IT! 

 

Why is every other keg and every other tap fine? 

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1 hour ago, Big Sarge said:

Josh, thanks for the info. I was leaning towards an infection, maybe even in the bottles (but not all of them). I don't think it was an incomplete fermentation, as I've religiously gone 3 weeks at controlled temps. I've also used the standard 1/2 teaspoon per 12 oz glass bottle, which has never steered me wrong. To taste, I definitely think I went too far by throwing in the whole 4 oz of chocolate malt. It sucks trying to eliminate the variables of what could've gone wrong, especially when the process has been tried and true. I knew the chocolate malt lacked fermentable sugars, which threw me for more of a loop. Sadly enough, I drank my last SWS this past weekend, after 6 months bottled. 

Not to get too far OT but I can sympathize with you & Creeps.  After a summer of random bottle bombs and all too frequent over-carbs, I am ready to make a few process changes including using bottled, i.e. sterile water for my top-off volume, and using StarSan for my sanitizer.  Like you said, there are too many variables to control, but I'm confident that we will eventually get to the bottom of this issue. 🍻 

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It's over carbonated. Remove the co2 connector from it. Bleed off the excess using the release valve if it's a ball lock or a pin lock with a ball lock lid. Or just pour over carbonated beers until it goes down. Once it calms down, reconnect the co2. 

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11 hours ago, Creeps McLane said:

I think i just have to dump the keg. Then ill quarantine it indefinitely. Maybe soak it in PBW for weeks 

if it tastes good don't dump it. I had a recent keg over carbed and ended up pouring it into a 2 gallon pitchr, let it settle down in the fridge and drank it. it was great tasting, just too much foam regardless what I attempted

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An infection can sometimes over-carbonate a beer before it displays any off-flavors/aromas. In some cases, especially in the presence of high IBUs and cold temperatures, it could take weeks or months before an infection will actually create off-flavors (this is why some sour beers take so long to make if they aren't kettle-soured). I did the ChromosBeer recipe recently and it got infected and even had a small pellicle (biofilm) formation. But, fortunately, it tasted fine so I kegged it. Once kegged, the pellicle won't reform because it only does so in the presence of oxygen. And because of that, you can also have an infection without any signs of a pellicle if the headspace is free from oxygen.

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16 minutes ago, MRB Josh R said:

I did the ChromosBeer recipe recently and it got infected and even had a small pellicle (biofilm) formation. But, fortunately, it tasted fine so I kegged it. Once kegged, the pellicle won't reform because it only does so in the presence of oxygen. And because of that, you can also have an infection without any signs of a pellicle if the headspace is free from oxygen.

 

So Josh didn't sanitize good enough?

 

75258f71ed5ec11e6f2e1b20cdecdc40ff7493f0

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1 hour ago, RickBeer said:

 

So Josh didn't sanitize good enough?

 

Pretty sure it was due to the very old LBK I used. Probably had some scratches in it so I tossed it. In any case, it can still happen to the best of us - even with proper sanitation. In fact, on a homebreweing level, ALL of our beers are infected in some way. It's just a matter of controlling it before off-flavors set in. Fortunately, the ChromosBeer still came out tasting great. I really like that recipe and might try an all-grain version soon.

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48 minutes ago, MRB Josh R said:

 

Pretty sure it was due to the very old LBK I used. Probably had some scratches in it so I tossed it. In any case, it can still happen to the best of us - even with proper sanitation. In fact, on a homebreweing level, ALL of our beers are infected in some way. It's just a matter of controlling it before off-flavors set in. Fortunately, the ChromosBeer still came out tasting great. I really like that recipe and might try an all-grain version soon.

Hmmm.... I was wondering about this just yesterday.  Is it possible to 'wear out' a LBK?  I've always washed mine thoroughly with a soft cloth, soap and warm water immediately after bottling -- but maybe after 20 or 30 batches, time to retire them?  

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1 hour ago, MRB Josh R said:

 

Pretty sure it was due to the very old LBK I used. Probably had some scratches in it so I tossed it. In any case, it can still happen to the best of us - even with proper sanitation. In fact, on a homebreweing level, ALL of our beers are infected in some way. It's just a matter of controlling it before off-flavors set in. Fortunately, the ChromosBeer still came out tasting great. I really like that recipe and might try an all-grain version soon.

Glad to see that, as it's one of the first on my list to brew once the weather cools down a bit and I switch to doing some lagers.

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4 hours ago, MRB Josh R said:

An infection can sometimes over-carbonate a beer before it displays any off-flavors/aromas. In some cases, especially in the presence of high IBUs and cold temperatures, it could take weeks or months before an infection will actually create off-flavors (this is why some sour beers take so long to make if they aren't kettle-soured). I did the ChromosBeer recipe recently and it got infected and even had a small pellicle (biofilm) formation. But, fortunately, it tasted fine so I kegged it. Once kegged, the pellicle won't reform because it only does so in the presence of oxygen. And because of that, you can also have an infection without any signs of a pellicle if the headspace is free from oxygen.

OOH I am not the only one. Did it look like this?

 

Film on beer 20170913_090432.png

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That's a pretty little infection... and unless you pitched Lactobacillus, that's not a good thing to be looking at. Yikes!  Just be thankful that wasn't inside a 35 gallon conical full of a pale ale... not that I can say I have ever done that <cough>!

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22 minutes ago, Nickfixit said:

OOH I am not the only one. Did it look like this?

 

Film on beer 20170913_090432.png

 

Yes, that is definitely an infection. Mine wasn't as pronounced as this, and am pretty sure it was a lacto infection. This looks like a wild yeast (Brettanomyces or wild Sacchromyces) pellicle, but lactobacillus and/or acetobacter could be in there, too. What does it smell/taste like?

http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Pellicle <--- Great website, by the way.

 

 

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21 hours ago, MRB Josh R said:

 

Yes, that is definitely an infection. Mine wasn't as pronounced as this, and am pretty sure it was a lacto infection. This looks like a wild yeast (Brettanomyces or wild Sacchromyces) pellicle, but lactobacillus and/or acetobacter could be in there, too. What does it smell/taste like?

http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Pellicle <--- Great website, by the way.

 

 

Tasted fine, it was Belgian Spiced Christmas Ale seasonal. So I bottled it. No obvious film in the bottles yet after 20 days.

I managed to bottle the beer without sucking any of the intact pellicle into the bottles.  And trashed the LBK.

 

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4 minutes ago, HoppySmile! said:

I had a yeast infection once

 

Why am I not surprised?  #Don'tWantToKnowWhereOrWithWhom/What   #HoppyAConflagurationOfDisease  #AnimalOrHuman?  #HoppfullyNotNecrophilia

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On 10/3/2017 at 11:01 PM, bpgreen said:

It's over carbonated. Remove the co2 connector from it. Bleed off the excess using the release valve if it's a ball lock or a pin lock with a ball lock lid. Or just pour over carbonated beers until it goes down. Once it calms down, reconnect the co2. 

Been bleeding CO2 for a few days now. It no longer creates gas like crazy. It has been in my fridge for that whole process. I do believe it is ready to drink now. As soon as a keezer slot is available ill slide that baby in its spot. 

 

I cant really think of how i couldve over carbed it that much. I guess my method of jacking the PSI up to 30 for a night before tapping is flawed if i never turn it back down. 

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On ‎10‎/‎5‎/‎2017 at 9:29 AM, Nickfixit said:

Tasted fine, it was Belgian Spiced Christmas Ale seasonal. So I bottled it. No obvious film in the bottles yet after 20 days.

I managed to bottle the beer without sucking any of the intact pellicle into the bottles.  And trashed the LBK.

 

Tried some today, definitely a different taste, somewhat funky. I can't classify it. Still drinkable.

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OH NOOOOOOO!!

My Apricot Saison has the same Pellicule.

 

Is it possible at all I could get this from commercial yeast pack, Belle Saison in this one?

Last one had T-58 in it.

 

Oh well, Must be a loose bug in my basement I suppose.

 

Badly sterilized hop bag?

 

How do I stop this?

 

I think New LBKs for one.

apricot Saison Pellicule.20171124_111247.jpg

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8 hours ago, Nickfixit said:

OH NOOOOOOO!!

My Apricot Saison has the same Pellicule.

 

Is it possible at all I could get this from commercial yeast pack, Belle Saison in this one?

Last one had T-58 in it.

 

Oh well, Must be a loose bug in my basement I suppose.

 

Badly sterilized hop bag?

 

How do I stop this?

 

I think New LBKs for one.

apricot Saison Pellicule.20171124_111247.jpg

 

OH NO!!!!!!!!! 

I have used commercial yeasts with no issues, but i do sanitize the crap out of the exterior of the packet and the scissors i use to open them. 

 

Depending on how you sanitized/sterilized and/or handled the hop bag after (i always sanitize everything that might come in contact with the bag (including hands, scissors, hop packets, plates, cups........etc.)during its filling and use a sanitized/sterilized covered glass/measuring cup to transport it to its destination) it is possible something undesirable came along for the ride. 

 

Errant bug floating around the basement is a possibility, but i have to ask... has this only happened on any batches you have opened for additions/dry hopping while the LBK has been in the basement or others not opened for additions/dry hopping as well? if so i would look around your basement for any signs of mold or other unsightly issues and take proper cleaning/remediation steps as needed. 

 

Did you use any utensil that you may have used on your other infected batch (or batches) that was used on this one? Maybe the bug hid on that. If so... toss and replace.

 

Sadly, yes, toss this LBK out and replace it. 

 

These are my ramblings and questions in an attempt to help solve a troubling issue. I hope they help...... 

 

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@Nickfixit

 

looks like you made a true grisette! 

 

Do you have fruit flies? I had to stop making kombucha cuz i couldnt keep them away. 

 

The last batch i brewed i dropped my unsanitized yeast packet right in the wort. No signs of infection. I guess i got lucky

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This is the 2nd one. I chucked the last LBK and this is a different one.

 

The pellicle is identical.

 

Both were in same higher temp basement room, I have had other beers in other room - no  problems there. bags are kept in that room.

First one - not opened after pitching and spices in bag were boiled. I did use refractometer sucker to check OG/FG. Did use fancy yeast.

Second - opened in warm basement area to put in apricots. Did use different fancy yeast. Did not use refractometer. Apricots, bag and ginger both scalded with boiling water

Another beer in other part has no issues I added a scalded bag of cereal into that at same time as I added apricots, same method.

The only thing I can see common is the basement location. and both used fancy yeast packets.

 

.Well I will see how it tastes. I will bottle it next Monday

Maybe I am on to something :-D

 

I did order 3 new LBKs since they were only $10.

I will be more careful now in sanitization. Not that I think I was sloppy.

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On ‎10‎/‎4‎/‎2017 at 5:16 PM, MRB Josh R said:

 

Yes, that is definitely an infection. Mine wasn't as pronounced as this, and am pretty sure it was a lacto infection. This looks like a wild yeast (Brettanomyces or wild Sacchromyces) pellicle, but lactobacillus and/or acetobacter could be in there, too. What does it smell/taste like?

http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Pellicle <--- Great website, by the way.

 

 

Well after some months I opened  another bottle today. - a veritable carbonation volcano!

The taste is more rounded in and there is some fruitiness to it also.

 

But I had read that Brett keeps on over time fermenting otherwise unfermentable (by yeast) sugars and the carbonation can really increase.

Seems that is what has happened.

I have to check the other bottles to see how hard they are and if I have any glass ones - more dangerous.

 

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13 minutes ago, Nickfixit said:

Well after some months I opened  another bottle today. - a veritable carbonation volcano!

The taste is more rounded in and there is some fruitiness to it also.

 

But I had read that Brett keeps on over time fermenting otherwise unfermentable (by yeast) sugars and the carbonation can really increase.

Seems that is what has happened.

I have to check the other bottles to see how hard they are and if I have any glass ones - more dangerous.

 

 

Yeah, that does sound like a brett or pedio infection of some type. Fortunately, with the added fruitiness, it may be one of the "good" bretts. Refrigerating them will stop any further fermentation in the bottles.

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7 hours ago, MRB Josh R said:

 

Yeah, that does sound like a brett or pedio infection of some type. Fortunately, with the added fruitiness, it may be one of the "good" bretts. Refrigerating them will stop any further fermentation in the bottles.

I has not happened again so maybe I got rid of it. Or I am just sterilizing better.

But this is how it ended up 

 

BSX with brett20180117_170325.jpg

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i think I recall reading that brett is an extremely tenacious yeast that is really hard to kill with sanitizer. if you ever intentionally brew one you are stuck only making bretts in that fermenter. .  .  mashani (if memory serves) has brett c in his air ducts in his house, and has problems with it getting into fermentations... but he likes sours so...

 

if it is always the same lbk that makes gushers I would scrap it and get a new one. I would also brew in a living area not the basement. .. and use a chiller box to keep goobies from blowing around the lbk via the air ducts.

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10 hours ago, zorak1066 said:

i think I recall reading that brett is an extremely tenacious yeast that is really hard to kill with sanitizer. if you ever intentionally brew one you are stuck only making bretts in that fermenter. .  .  mashani (if memory serves) has brett c in his air ducts in his house, and has problems with it getting into fermentations... but he likes sours so...

 

if it is always the same lbk that makes gushers I would scrap it and get a new one. I would also brew in a living area not the basement. .. and use a chiller box to keep goobies from blowing around the lbk via the air ducts.

That is what I thought too. So I trashed the 2 that had the pellicule and  bought new ones when they had the $10 sale. Have not had it again yet.

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20 hours ago, MRB Josh R said:

 

Yeah, that does sound like a brett or pedio infection of some type. Fortunately, with the added fruitiness, it may be one of the "good" bretts. Refrigerating them will stop any further fermentation in the bottles.

I relieved pressure in the bottles - they were the PET screw cap.  I checked the one 12 oz and the lid does not seem to be pushed up (past high pressure caps has been noticeably bulging up in the middle of the cap.)  Actually that would be a good cap design, allowed to distort to show the carbonation pressure. It might be possible to indicate it fairly well, maybe by a coating on the cap that changes color or shade as it stretches or bends.

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All I can come up with is some exotic paint for measuring stress, or maybe diffraction grating film on the bottle top. . Probably better are self adhesive discs. or coating applied in bulk as the caps are made.

 

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On 1/17/2018 at 10:20 PM, zorak1066 said:

i think I recall reading that brett is an extremely tenacious yeast that is really hard to kill with sanitizer. if you ever intentionally brew one you are stuck only making bretts in that fermenter. .  .  mashani (if memory serves) has brett c in his air ducts in his house, and has problems with it getting into fermentations... but he likes sours so...

 

if it is always the same lbk that makes gushers I would scrap it and get a new one. I would also brew in a living area not the basement. .. and use a chiller box to keep goobies from blowing around the lbk via the air ducts.

Im not an expert, let me just start by saying that.

 

brett doesn’t scare me. Pedio and lacto do. I think you can clean brett away. 

 

I thought i had more to say than that... but i dont...

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i got a lactobacter infection once in my mr b pumpkin weis.  ack...  i drank it anyway.  really sour.   brett is very difficult to get rid of. if it finds a nook in a crack or scratch in your fermenter, you'll likely have every other batch made in it come out with brett ... at least that's what ive read on forums.  the lacto hit in a glass carboy so i guess i was lucky in that regard.

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