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Conditioning/Cider flavor

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So I brewed Bindlestick about 8 weeks ago. Fermented 3 weeks at 66°, cold crashed for 3 days and batched primed. Carbonated for 3 weeks between 70°-74° and then stored them in a box in my closet which was anywhere between 64°-76°. Conditioning time is recommended for 1-2 weeks so I tried one at one week and it tasted great! So I waited another week and put another one in the fridge for 3 days and it's completely different. Taste and reeks of cider. 

 

I've had many batches where some taste great and some taste like cider. What am I doing wrong? Are some bottles conditioning while others are not? Or is it a cleaning/sanitizing issue? Any help would be appreciated... starting to drive me crazy.

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10 hours ago, youdontknowme311 said:

So I brewed Bindlestick about 8 weeks ago. Fermented 3 weeks at 66°, cold crashed for 3 days and batched primed. Carbonated for 3 weeks between 70°-74° and then stored them in a box in my closet which was anywhere between 64°-76°. Conditioning time is recommended for 1-2 weeks so I tried one at one week and it tasted great! So I waited another week and put another one in the fridge for 3 days and it's completely different. Taste and reeks of cider. 

 

I've had many batches where some taste great and some taste like cider. What am I doing wrong? Are some bottles conditioning while others are not? Or is it a cleaning/sanitizing issue? Any help would be appreciated... starting to drive me crazy.

This is a partial mash recipe, with US-05 yeast, I wouldn’t think you’d be getting those flavors at all. I think extended conditioning will help this particular batch. 

 

Did this pour warm up a little before you drank it? I think more flavors come out as beer warms up including off flavors.

 

also, I think a lot has to do with your palette. There’s sometimes I drink one of my beers and think it’s the best beer ive ever had, then I come back the next day and taste something completely different. My favorite time to drink a beer is right after work before dinner cuz I haven’t had anything to eat or drink for awhile. 

 

I dont think anything you’re doing is wrong. If I were to change anything I would move to cold conditioning after the three weeks of carbonating. Perhaps it’s not acetaldehyde but twang your still tasting? How’s the carb level? I feel certain flavors are accented by over carbing 

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Beer was nice and chilled for 3 days and poured into a clean glass and I could smell it right away. The first one I drank had nice head retention and lacing and this one had no head whatsoever. I tried another one and the cidery flavor was dialed back a little but still there. Carb level seems good to me. It's been consistent in all of my batches and I think it tastes like green apples/cider but maybe it's not?

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1 hour ago, youdontknowme311 said:

Beer was nice and chilled for 3 days and poured into a clean glass and I could smell it right away. The first one I drank had nice head retention and lacing and this one had no head whatsoever. I tried another one and the cidery flavor was dialed back a little but still there. Carb level seems good to me. It's been consistent in all of my batches and I think it tastes like green apples/cider but maybe it's not?

What temp are you pitching at? 

 

Sounds like acetaldehyde for sure

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Usually between 64-68 depends how cold I get my spring water. I use a mini fridge with a temp control and the probe is taped to the side and I ferment between 64-66 so I know that's good. But like I said, one bottle was great almost like a store bought beer and the other 2 were awful.

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Hmm, I probably can't help here but my cider tastes went away when I controlled my temps both in a cooler and now the mini fridge with controller. 

Do you have your mini fridge set on it's coldest level? Do you have your probe insulated by a folded cloth or sponge and below the wort line? I set my inkbird to 64 with a 1 degree temp differential so that it kicks on the fridge at 65 and shuts off at 63.

 

Do you use a bottle wand? Do you prop up your LBK when fermenting, cold crashing, and bottling?

 

Trub doesn't taste good so you have to be careful when you pour to leave about a quarter inch of beer in the bottle.

 

I know this is all basic stuff but it seems like if you have cider tastes it would come from yeast stress somewhere like pitch temp or fermenting temps, and it would effect the whole batch. I'd think you would taste it in either a taste sampling or hydrometer sampling.

 

When re-using bottles I use an unscented soap like 7th generation to initially wash them and then rinse several times before putting them on the bottle tree to dry.

 

All your procedures sound really solid and good, so it could be some seemingly minor error causing this, so doesn't hurt to review each step.

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4 hours ago, Cato said:

Hmm, I probably can't help here but my cider tastes went away when I controlled my temps both in a cooler and now the mini fridge with controller. 

Do you have your mini fridge set on it's coldest level? Do you have your probe insulated by a folded cloth or sponge and below the wort line? I set my inkbird to 64 with a 1 degree temp differential so that it kicks on the fridge at 65 and shuts off at 63.

 

Do you use a bottle wand? Do you prop up your LBK when fermenting, cold crashing, and bottling?

 

Trub doesn't taste good so you have to be careful when you pour to leave about a quarter inch of beer in the bottle.

 

I know this is all basic stuff but it seems like if you have cider tastes it would come from yeast stress somewhere like pitch temp or fermenting temps, and it would effect the whole batch. I'd think you would taste it in either a taste sampling or hydrometer sampling.

 

When re-using bottles I use an unscented soap like 7th generation to initially wash them and then rinse several times before putting them on the bottle tree to dry.

 

All your procedures sound really solid and good, so it could be some seemingly minor error causing this, so doesn't hurt to review each step.

 

I do everything you mentioned. I use a face cloth to insulate the probe and my set point is 65 with 1 degree differential. I prop the fermenter up regardless if I'm using an LBK or the 2 gallon brewmax. I use uncented dish soap also or brewery wash to clean bottles and I also use a bottle tree. When it comes to conditioning sometimes it's hard to maintain 70 degrees as I live in the Northeast and one day it's 90 and the next it's 50 lol. So I either use the mini fridge or cooler with a heating pad to control temps. But maybe not all the bottles are conditioning at the same rate?

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34 minutes ago, youdontknowme311 said:

 

I do everything you mentioned. I use a face cloth to insulate the probe and my set point is 65 with 1 degree differential. I prop the fermenter up regardless if I'm using an LBK or the 2 gallon brewmax. I use uncented dish soap also or brewery wash to clean bottles and I also use a bottle tree. When it comes to conditioning sometimes it's hard to maintain 70 degrees as I live in the Northeast and one day it's 90 and the next it's 50 lol. So I either use the mini fridge or cooler with a heating pad to control temps. But maybe not all the bottles are conditioning at the same rate?

I'd think all the bottles would condition similarly.

 

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This is a great topic. I only have about 12 batches under my belt now but the majority have a cidery twang about them. My tangerous ipa I just tried was completely devoid of cider. I had never used long play hme before either. I did nothing different as far as temps....etc. This is after 1 month in bottles. Then I try my voodoo which I bottled 2 months ago and quite cidery. I’m gonna try a recipe soon with no canned hme. Just grains, hops and dme. I’m willing to bet in advanced that I won’t get a cider taste. Not sure. 

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I guess everybody's pallete reacts differently when it comes to homebrewing with HME and perhaps what they call twang.

 

My old taste buds identify it as that lingering sweetness on the tongue. @Creeps McLane described that well recently in a similar post. I don't mind it really, it's just not as crisp a finish as a commercial brew. I haven't gotten any off flavor esters, pear, apple, cider, since I went to fermenting 63-64F in a cooler and now the mini fridge with inkbird. Hops will totally mask it for me until they start to fade.

 

Drying it out with a half cup of honey like in that saison recipe he gave us gave as close to a crisp finish as I've been able to manage thus far.

I'll be curious to see how a couple brews in my queue do that are coming up in the next week or so as those are PM's with LME, grains, and hops.

 

 

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13 hours ago, Jdub said:

This is a great topic. I only have about 12 batches under my belt now but the majority have a cidery twang about them. My tangerous ipa I just tried was completely devoid of cider. I had never used long play hme before either. I did nothing different as far as temps....etc. This is after 1 month in bottles. Then I try my voodoo which I bottled 2 months ago and quite cidery. I’m gonna try a recipe soon with no canned hme. Just grains, hops and dme. I’m willing to bet in advanced that I won’t get a cider taste. Not sure. 

 

I brewed Long Play with nothing added. Half the batch tasted like a solid IPA and the other half was a underwhelming mess. That's the thing that confuses me. 

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8 hours ago, Cato said:

I guess everybody's pallete reacts differently when it comes to homebrewing with HME and perhaps what they call twang.

 

My old taste buds identify it as that lingering sweetness on the tongue. @Creeps McLane described that well recently in a similar post. I don't mind it really, it's just not as crisp a finish as a commercial brew. I haven't gotten any off flavor esters, pear, apple, cider, since I went to fermenting 63-64F in a cooler and now the mini fridge with inkbird. Hops will totally mask it for me until they start to fade.

 

Drying it out with a half cup of honey like in that saison recipe he gave us gave as close to a crisp finish as I've been able to manage thus far.

I'll be curious to see how a couple brews in my queue do that are coming up in the next week or so as those are PM's with LME, grains, and hops.

 

 

 

I've read about extract twang before and it's not just a slight sweetness I pick up. Some bottles are so overwhelmingly bad which makes me me believe I'm doing something wrong with my process. I just don't know what and I'm getting bummed out.

 

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1 hour ago, youdontknowme311 said:

 

I brewed Long Play with nothing added. Half the batch tasted like a solid IPA and the other half was a underwhelming mess. That's the thing that confuses me. 

Man, that sure sounds like too much trub or something in the bottling end. Do you batch prime or bottle prime? I've not done batch priming, but use 1 domino sugar dot per bottle.

Yeah, I know I'm likely stretching looking for the problem and I'm at a loss as to how part of a batch could be different from the rest. Somebody more qualified may have some ideas. Your procedures have all sounded solid to me.

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18 minutes ago, Cato said:

Man, that sure sounds like too much trub or something in the bottling end. Do you batch prime or bottle prime? I've not done batch priming, but use 1 domino sugar dot per bottle.

Yeah, I know I'm likely stretching looking for the problem and I'm at a loss as to how part of a batch could be different from the rest. Somebody more qualified may have some ideas. Your procedures have all sounded solid to me.

 I use to bottle prime but the last 5 batches I've batch primed but same result.

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The only thing that I can think of is the water. That is the one constant for me. I use Walmart or Kroger gallon jugs of spring water. My temps for fermenting are in the low to mid 60’s. I still get that apple cider taste. Will let some of these condition longer and see what happens. 

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4 hours ago, youdontknowme311 said:

 

I've read about extract twang before and it's not just a slight sweetness I pick up. Some bottles are so overwhelmingly bad which makes me me believe I'm doing something wrong with my process. I just don't know what and I'm getting bummed out.

 

What type of pot do you use when you brew? 

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50 minutes ago, D Kristof said:

What type of pot do you use when you brew? 

 It's stainless, not sure of the size but I brought it brand new and only use it for brewing.

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2 hours ago, Jdub said:

The only thing that I can think of is the water. That is the one constant for me. I use Walmart or Kroger gallon jugs of spring water. My temps for fermenting are in the low to mid 60’s. I still get that apple cider taste. Will let some of these condition longer and see what happens. 

 I usually get spring water from Wal-Mart or the market near my house. I use tap water to clean and sanatize everything but I've read that using tap to clean shouldn't make a difference.

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1 hour ago, youdontknowme311 said:

 I usually get spring water from Wal-Mart or the market near my house. I use tap water to clean and sanatize everything but I've read that using tap to clean shouldn't make a difference.

Does a quick read point out any obvious flaws in how you brew?

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/beerandbrewing.com/amp/off-flavor-of-the-week-acetaldehyde

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On 5/29/2018 at 10:04 PM, Creeps McLane said:

 

Does a quick read point out any obvious flaws in how you brew?

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/beerandbrewing.com/amp/off-flavor-of-the-week-acetaldehyde

 

No not really, I think I'm pretty anal about sanatizing but maybe I need to reevaluate my cleaning and sanitizing. But other than that my temps are solid so I honestly just don't know what to do.

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11 minutes ago, youdontknowme311 said:

 

No not really, I think I'm pretty anal about sanatizing but maybe I need to reevaluate my cleaning and sanitizing. But other than that my temps are solid so I honestly just don't know what to do.

What kind of temp controller?

 

what temp are you pitching at? 

 

Whos your favorite x-men character?

 

how long are you fermenting?

 

is your spigot clean? I dont think its cleanliness. I think you’re sensitive to that taste. That or you’re perception of sweetness is actually cider. 

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19 minutes ago, Creeps McLane said:

What kind of temp controller?

 

what temp are you pitching at? 

 

Whos your favorite x-men character?

 

how long are you fermenting?

 

is your spigot clean? I dont think its cleanliness. I think you’re sensitive to that taste. That or you’re perception of sweetness is actually cider. 

 

I use a inkbird controller.

 

I pitch yeast around 64-68.

 

Lol Wolverine. 

 

Always ferment for 3 weeks then cold crash.

 

Spigot is always clean, always pull it apart afterwards. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, youdontknowme311 said:

 

I use a inkbird controller.

 

I pitch yeast around 64-68.

 

Lol Wolverine. 

 

Always ferment for 3 weeks then cold crash.

 

Spigot is always clean, always pull it apart afterwards. 

 

 

Youre doing everything right as far as i can tell. Your problem is a puzzling one... maybe your controller is set to celcius and your controller isnt cooling... that could be the last idea i have. You said you did a partial mash with us-05 as your yeast right? With 05 youd have to be up in the 70s to get an unmistakable off flavor.

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@youdontknowme311

 

perhaps try conditioning in a cooler location. Has the taste progressively gotten worse as time went on? I store all my beer in the basement closet under the stairs. Its always the coldest spot in my house. 

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I’m starting to wonder about conditioning temps. I store all mine upstairs where the temp is 68-78. I always figured it’s supposed to be warmer for conditioning. Don’t have a constantly cool place like a basement to store in. 

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@Creeps McLane

 

I wouldn't say it's gotten worse. But then again these current batches haven't been stored that long yet.

 

Some bottles are stronger than others but it's consistently in all my batches. 

 

I live in an apartment but I do have a storage area down in the basement. I could try conditioning them down there. 

 

 

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@Jdub Not yet, I have a few batches that are conditioning right now that I tried a few new things with so I should know shortly. Chantilly Lace is at it's minimum conditioning time so I just put a bottle in the fridge last night. Will find out if it's drinkable in a few days. lol

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6 hours ago, youdontknowme311 said:

@Jdub Not yet, I have a few batches that are conditioning right now that I tried a few new things with so I should know shortly. Chantilly Lace is at it's minimum conditioning time so I just put a bottle in the fridge last night. Will find out if it's drinkable in a few days. lol

i don't think that the apple cider effect is from conditioning. The reason is that I always taste a sample while bottling. I would almost always taste it then. I haven't solved the mystery yet. good luck!

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@Jdub oh I just meant I have to wait to condition these batches before I find out. I usually taste the cider when bottling too except the one batch I did with distilled water. I tried to pay more attention to pitching temps so we'll see. 

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5 hours ago, youdontknowme311 said:

@Jdub oh I just meant I have to wait to condition these batches before I find out. I usually taste the cider when bottling too except the one batch I did with distilled water. I tried to pay more attention to pitching temps so we'll see. 

right i hear what you're saying. maybe there is something to the pitching temps as far as off flavors go. i've just followed the MRB instructions in the past using chilled water in the LBK etc.

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3 hours ago, Jdub said:

right i hear what you're saying. maybe there is something to the pitching temps as far as off flavors go. i've just followed the MRB instructions in the past using chilled water in the LBK etc.

Yea same here, but I started thinking that maybe I wasn't giving the water enough time in the fridge to get cold enough. I'd buy the water that day and brew that night so maybe it wasnt cold enough but idk. I'm just reaching for possibilities though. lol 

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1 hour ago, youdontknowme311 said:

Yea same here, but I started thinking that maybe I wasn't giving the water enough time in the fridge to get cold enough. I'd buy the water that day and brew that night so maybe it wasnt cold enough but idk. I'm just reaching for possibilities though. lol 

it's something b/c so many people on this forum brew up a recipe and rave about it, and I will brew up the exact same recipe and have lots of apple cider flavor. I just don't get it. I have observed that they seem to get better over time, but I'm talking several months conditioning. i do know that i brewed a DME recipe recently and had zero off flavors. it was very good.

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I usually put at least a gallon of spring water in the fridge 2 days before brewing if I'm going into an LBK. Brew day I'll pour what room temp water I need into the kettle and put whatever's left in the fridge to cool down as well while I'm boiling, steeping, whatever.

 

That'll usually get me close to pitch temp fairly quickly if I'm just using HME or LME and going into an LBK. If not then I'll pop the LBK in the fridge for a couple hours until I get the wort at least under the max temp of the yeast by a few degrees. Ideally I like anywhere from 74-77F and the yeast at room temp, which in my house is 68-72 depending on the season.

 

As far as I can tell, albeit a first year brewer, I'm not stressing my yeast and getting off flavors from that method, and once my LBK is in the cooler I ferment on the cool side 64F for most of my yeasts.

 

My AG batches in my little stainless fermenter are proving to be a little more challenging to chill rapidly since I'm doing a full volume boil for that. Immersion chiller has helped a lot but still leaving me too high to pitch in this hot weather, so either an ice bath for the kettle or a two stage chill with the wort chiller, faucet first, then pumping ice water through it to lower that last 12-15 degrees. 

 

Sorry didn't mean to go overboard on that, but I'm thinking that from pitch temp to ferment temp thru first few days of krausen is where your off flavors aka yeast stress has been introduced. Lol, I'll shut up now.

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@Cato lol that's good stuff. yes, for mrb recipes i do the same thing in terms of keeping the gallon jugs of water in the fridge. I'm pretty certain that my pitch temps are good. in fact a couple of cases i was worried that it was too cold. for larger mashes that require more water, I will do ice bath in sink and that has worked well. My AG batches, I used a couple of bags of ice. that has worked and I get wort down to ~70 pretty quick. bottling an AG hefe next week. looking forward to sampling. i wonder what effect making a yeast starter could have? maybe none? or maybe it could help.....don't know.

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@Jdub I wonder the same thing, every batch I've made has some level of cider flavor to it. I've had Horse's Ass in bottles for at least 6 months now and it's not getting any better. Sticky Wicket had the least amount but it's still there. I've always pitched on the cooler side well at least around 62-68 degrees and I usually ferment around 64-66. So I honestly don't know what is causing my yeast to stress out. I'm interested in doing the 1 gallon batches with DME and seeing if that changes anything for me.

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1 hour ago, youdontknowme311 said:

@Jdub I wonder the same thing, every batch I've made has some level of cider flavor to it. I've had Horse's Ass in bottles for at least 6 months now and it's not getting any better. Sticky Wicket had the least amount but it's still there. I've always pitched on the cooler side well at least around 62-68 degrees and I usually ferment around 64-66. So I honestly don't know what is causing my yeast to stress out. I'm interested in doing the 1 gallon batches with DME and seeing if that changes anything for me.

What yeast are you using? It might be coincidence but after my first two batches using MB yeast I switched to US-05, plus temp control and haven't had off flavors since. I did pitch one batch at 55F, using US-05, and got away with it but normally I try to have the wort a little warmer than my room temp yeast. How big an effect, if any, idk. I guess when you find whatever method is working for you, you tend to stay with it.

 

Don't give up on it though. Possible you're tasting extract tang from HME, so maybe make a partial mash with a can of Briess LME, or like Jdub and try a DME partial mash. There's different ways to skin this cat, and you're close.

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14 minutes ago, Cato said:

What yeast are you using? It might be coincidence but after my first two batches using MB yeast I switched to US-05, plus temp control and haven't had off flavors since. I did pitch one batch at 55F, using US-05, and got away with it but normally I try to have the wort a little warmer than my room temp yeast. How big an effect, if any, idk. I guess when you find whatever method is working for you, you tend to stay with it.

 

Don't give up on it though. Possible you're tasting extract tang from HME, so maybe make a partial mash with a can of Briess LME, or like Jdub and try a DME partial mash. There's different ways to skin this cat, and you're close.

I've used the coopers yeast, US-05 & 04. Even with US-05 I get cidery flavors and I've read it's a clean & forgiving yeast. But I've used it a handful of times and still haven't made decent beer worth drinking. It must be the extract twang....I've tried everything else. lol

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2 hours ago, youdontknowme311 said:

I've used the coopers yeast, US-05 & 04. Even with US-05 I get cidery flavors and I've read it's a clean & forgiving yeast. But I've used it a handful of times and still haven't made decent beer worth drinking. It must be the extract twang....I've tried everything else. lol

Its very hard for me to sit here and be quiet. Its an HME thing. Honestly, since ive gone all grain i had to relearn what i knew. I can go 5 degrees higher with your same yeasts with no notice of off flavors. Thats the difference of needing a fermentation chamber or not for me. Thats huge. Im not saying you cant hide that flavor youre getting. It just takes more effort. I may expess this too much on an HME forum, and i hope i dont sound like im bragging cuz i can do AG but to me the beers ive brewed have been more than enough of proof.

 

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Yeah, I can echo what others have said. Just don't give up. I just brewed up my 20th LBK batch last night, the Dead & Berried Mr Beer recipe. But i added a few things, and  I substituted Safale BE134 for the Belle Saison (undecided if I'm a fan of that yeast). Really I believe it boils down to a matter or personal preference/tastes. I tried Safale US-05 on several batches: HME, partial mash, DME, LME & even all grain BIAB. Honestly, I don't like US-05 very much at all. There's some weird cabbage off flavor in my finished beer that I just can't quite describe. And I believe it's possibly my taste buds & olfactory senses,  since so many others rave about it & I just don't care for it. So anyway. I've found that that I prefer 04 or even Nottingham. I've tried a few WLP (1272 is pretty good) and WYEAST (American wheat) which aren't bad at all. And I  enjoy the WB-06 Wheat yeast (after cold conditioning a Bavarian Hefe a few months, awesome!). I would say this hobby is just as much about experimentation. And since it's 2 gallon batches, it's much easier to go that route & be OK with some not-so-great batches. Trial & error. Sure, I've had a few botched batches here & there (that I'm still drinking by the way) but overall I've had a lot more successes. Whether that's a Mr Beer HME/partial mash, an all extract using DME or LME, or an all grain BIAB. Find what you enjoy & keep doing it until you get it right the way you like it! Read up, borrow some homebrewing books from your local library such as from Papazzian, who if I can remember his quote, basically says you really have to work to screw up a home brew! Enjoy the process, take good notes, pay attention. But most of all, have fun. It's a hobby! Cheers

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6 minutes ago, Gutterbunnie said:

Yeah, I can echo what others have said. Just don't give up. I just brewed up my 20th LBK batch last night, the Dead & Berried Mr Beer recipe. But i added a few things, and  I substituted Safale BE134 for the Belle Saison (undecided if I'm a fan of that yeast). Really I believe it boils down to a matter or personal preference/tastes. I tried Safale US-05 on several batches: HME, partial mash, DME, LME & even all grain BIAB. Honestly, I don't like US-05 very much at all. There's some weird cabbage off flavor in my finished beer that I just can't quite describe. And I believe it's possibly my taste buds & olfactory senses,  since so many others rave about it & I just don't care for it. So anyway. I've found that that I prefer 04 or even Nottingham. I've tried a few WLP (1272 is pretty good) and WYEAST (American wheat) which aren't bad at all. And I  enjoy the WB-06 Wheat yeast (after cold conditioning a Bavarian Hefe a few months, awesome!). I would say this hobby is just as much about experimentation. And since it's 2 gallon batches, it's much easier to go that route & be OK with some not-so-great batches. Trial & error. Sure, I've had a few botched batches here & there (that I'm still drinking by the way) but overall I've had a lot more successes. Whether that's a Mr Beer HME/partial mash, an all extract using DME or LME, or an all grain BIAB. Find what you enjoy & keep doing it until you get it right the way you like it! Read up, borrow some homebrewing books from your local library such as from Papazzian, who if I can remember his quote, basically says you really have to work to screw up a home brew! Enjoy the process, take good notes, pay attention. But most of all, have fun. It's a hobby! Cheers

Well said, Gutterbunnie! Each of those different brewing methods have their own set of challenges, which makes it fun to try and make your best beer you can and how you'll do it better next time.

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3 hours ago, Creeps McLane said:

Its very hard for me to sit here and be quiet. Its an HME thing. Honestly, since ive gone all grain i had to relearn what i knew. I can go 5 degrees higher with your same yeasts with no notice of off flavors. Thats the difference of needing a fermentation chamber or not for me. Thats huge. Im not saying you cant hide that flavor youre getting. It just takes more effort. I may expess this too much on an HME forum, and i hope i dont sound like im bragging cuz i can do AG but to me the beers ive brewed have been more than enough of proof.

 

Creeps, speaking for myself, you have no need to hesitate about speaking your mind; your reputation on this forum is solid as can be.  I too think that the HME is the source of the twang.  But I also think that the partial mash recipes - either from the added grain, the hops, or both - work well in minimizing it.  Some of the PM IPAs I've brewed have had no trace of twang, and neither have the PM stouts.  The Crafty Bitch brews I make with the CAL have a total of 6oz of grains and 1.5oz of hops added...and no twang to be found.  And more bitter and hoppy HMEs also have less, at least for me.  I brewed Long Play IPA + 4oz carapils and it had no twang.  When I did the same with an HME like American Ale?  Twang.

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3 hours ago, Creeps McLane said:

Its very hard for me to sit here and be quiet. Its an HME thing. Honestly, since ive gone all grain i had to relearn what i knew. I can go 5 degrees higher with your same yeasts with no notice of off flavors. Thats the difference of needing a fermentation chamber or not for me. Thats huge. Im not saying you cant hide that flavor youre getting. It just takes more effort. I may expess this too much on an HME forum, and i hope i dont sound like im bragging cuz i can do AG but to me the beers ive brewed have been more than enough of proof.

 

#Preach!  🍺

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1 hour ago, Shrike said:

Creeps, speaking for myself, you have no need to hesitate about speaking your mind; your reputation on this forum is solid as can be.  I too think that the HME is the source of the twang.  But I also think that the partial mash recipes - either from the added grain, the hops, or both - work well in minimizing it.  Some of the PM IPAs I've brewed have had no trace of twang, and neither have the PM stouts.  The Crafty Bitch brews I make with the CAL have a total of 6oz of grains and 1.5oz of hops added...and no twang to be found.  And more bitter and hoppy HMEs also have less, at least for me.  I brewed Long Play IPA + 4oz carapils and it had no twang.  When I did the same with an HME like American Ale?  Twang.

@Shrike is speaking the truth.....long play ipa i brewed for the tangerously hoppy ipa and no twang at all. one of my best brews. Anything american ale refill, i have noticed it. CAL, i have used in 2 versions of horse's ass, and have noticed it both times. no worries, i learned a ton in the process and if anything made me curious as to how to make it better. i made beer!

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1 hour ago, Jdub said:

@Shrike is speaking the truth.....long play ipa i brewed for the tangerously hoppy ipa and no twang at all. one of my best brews. Anything american ale refill, i have noticed it. CAL, i have used in 2 versions of horse's ass, and have noticed it both times. no worries, i learned a ton in the process and if anything made me curious as to how to make it better. i made beer!

To quote my brew buddy “the worst beer ive ever brewed still got me drunk”. He told me that the other day and i couldnt have agreed more

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4 hours ago, Cato said:

No need to be quiet Creeps!

 

 

Then let me add one last thing. 

 

You may be the best brewer in the world. You just don’t know it yet. Like @Gutterbunnie said (that should win the day everyday) is you just have to find what works for you. People talk about the high drop out rate on here all the time. For a Brewer who is doing everything right but your beer doesn’t taste like how you want it, that can be frustrating. Very frustrating. But you can’t give up. 

 

Ive made enough HME batches to learn I don’t prefer HME. I’ve brewed with enough LME to find that it wasn’t for me. I’m a freak for control and this isn’t a hobby that I’m ok with not putting the time into what I enjoy sitting down and enjoying on a daily basis. That’s me. I’ve had plenty of HME beers that @Bonsai & Brew sent me that blew me away. He’s f***ing good at working with what he has. I don’t have that. So I moved on. 

 

All I really wanted to say was this; don’t sell yourself short. Keep pushing. If something isn’t working, try something else. Look at @Nickfixit. He’s constantly tweaking and striving for the perfect balance in his beers. Don’t let one ingredient stop you from perfecting your beers. If you want to take the next step, ask questions. Be open to new ideas. This forum is filled with intelligent people who have been a newbie before. Partial mashes, hoppy beers, drying out your HMEs are a great start. But for me, the best thing I can say is to look at where you want to be in a year or five and start reaching for that level. Don’t sell yourself short! DONT SELL YOURSELF SHORT! 

 

Lastly, for years I’ve tried to stay relevant on this forum. I don’t really use HME anymore but I stay here to try to help others with my opinions though they very well may be wrong. Ask me anything and I’ll try to help. Freaking @kedogn is a professional Brewer, ask him. Sometimes a vet like @Screwy Brewer and @bpgreen will be on here. Listen to what they say. They’re amazing. This is what a forum is all about.

 

this was supposed to be a quick post, I’m sorry. I was raised in a house full of women so I get emotional quickly, but God damn it I’m here for you.

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Aaaagh! Yes indeed. Tweak does not always improve. I am probably less scientific too than it reads - lol - certainly I am less picky about my process too than many here (not a control freak 😄) .. But overall I am up to 215 brews now.  I do get some with funny flavors still. I very rarely get any that are undrinkable.

Differing from Creeps, I prefer the ease of using HME, and I find the beers drinkable and my friends do too, so that is good enough. Also SWMBO hates brewing smells so prolonged boiling etc. is not tenable. But I like the ease, starting or finishing 1 LBK brew in about an hour including cleanup. (maybe more for PM)

Today I bottled Oktoberfest enhanced with PM (2 oz each  Munich, Vienna and Biscuit grain ) and strengthened by 2 packs of booster and flavored more with 0.5 oz Hallertauer hop at flameout in a bag. This tasted good with no off flavors. It was fermented in ambient low-mid 60's using Mr. Beer yeast.  Why booster? #1 I have a bunch of it, #2, I do not like too malty as I also do not like too hoppy. I also have been messing around with beers so much I though I should try tasting more of the Mr Beer intent. I think it will be fine, having a sweetish start and a balanced finish where you can taste hops. Targeted at Halloween/Thanksgiving timeframe.

The only place I am picky on is sterilization using Mr Beer sanitizer or Onestep.   Having a basement room at 63-65 deg also helps. I actually have to warm some brews up in a different room if I want 70+. (Wheat or Saison)

I use directional  lamps  with spot light bulbs as heaters - 2  for 80 deg, one for 70-72 deg. I do not use temp controller I just use a thermometer on the LBK and move lamps closer or further away to get desired temp.   It seems close enough. For 80 I have to partly wrap the LBK in towels though.

 

When people ask me about the long process of brewing, I tell them I do it the easy way.

 

If you think warm temperature is your problem - cool the LBK ( I use  Coleman cooler chest and ice packs) or ferment a beer that likes warmth e.g. Saison.

For cheap temperature monitoring I use a $10 digital aquarium thermometer taped on the LBK side with paper towel insulation over the thermometer and under the tape.

If you have a cooler with a drain hole, you can run the wire through that and see temp without opening the cooler.

 

If you are concerned about temperature fluctuation, putting the LBK in  a container will help even it out - even a cardboard box but cooler is best. Early on I used a $2 foam one (you can still run the thermometer wire out if you make a little groove where the lid fits) and that worked too,.

 

But keep at it - try cooling the LBK in a cheap cooler with freezer ice packs of frozen water bottles (2/3 full only) first.

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Man this is such a wholesome thread. Just wanted to add my $0.02 on the twang issue.

 

I don't think we've ever disputed that liquid extracts can tend to have a twang. Every method of brewing has its pros and cons, none is the "right" way to brew. The advantages of HME are that it's great for beginners to learn on, doesn't take much time, space, or equipment, and I think the smaller batch size is an advantage to a lot of brewers. The disadvantages, as I see them, are less control over some factors, darker color, and occasional twang. 

 

To my palette, some refills have more twang than others. I get more of it with Diablo than Long play, and more with Blonde than Weissbier. So, that's one factor to consider. Another is that doing a grain steep or hop boil can reduce it pretty drastically. I find that more important than temp or sanitation, in terms of the twang aspect.  

 

I would also just add that I've brewed hundreds of HME batches by now, and only had a few batches where twang was strong and unpleasant enough to impact my enjoyment of the beer. Given our policy of replacing bad batches and, I think, our flexibility, I find that to be a pretty low-risk proposition. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, MRB Tim said:

Man this is such a wholesome thread. Just wanted to add my $0.02 on the twang issue.

 

I don't think we've ever disputed that liquid extracts can tend to have a twang. Every method of brewing has its pros and cons, none is the "right" way to brew. The advantages of HME are that it's great for beginners to learn on, doesn't take much time, space, or equipment, and I think the smaller batch size is an advantage to a lot of brewers. The disadvantages, as I see them, are less control over some factors, darker color, and occasional twang. 

 

To my palette, some refills have more twang than others. I get more of it with Diablo than Long play, and more with Blonde than Weissbier. So, that's one factor to consider. Another is that doing a grain steep or hop boil can reduce it pretty drastically. I find that more important than temp or sanitation, in terms of the twang aspect.  

 

I would also just add that I've brewed hundreds of HME batches by now, and only had a few batches where twang was strong and unpleasant enough to impact my enjoyment of the beer. Given our policy of replacing bad batches and, I think, our flexibility, I find that to be a pretty low-risk proposition. 

 

 

 

Those are a lot of reasons why I stick with HME.  I like doing two gallon batches; five gallons is just too much to work with, bottle, etc.  Plus, if I'm not too fond of the final product, I'd rather have two gallons to slog through than five.  The darker color doesn't bother me.  If it tastes good I'm happy.  And as I posted earlier, doing PMs and hop additions can cancel the twang pretty handily.  When I had family visit earlier this year they preferred some of the MRB brews we sampled to some of the craft beers we had while eating out.  That was a nice little ego boost.  :)

And to me, this is a fun hobby.  I spend a couple of hours every ten days or so bottling and brewing, and I get tasty beer as a result.  When I look at a setup like @Creeps McLane has posted photos of I think "Man, that looks so cool...but it also looks like work."  It's what he enjoys doing, but it's not for me; I don't want my fun hobby to become a chore.

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What does the "twang" taste like? Does it still taste like good beer but has a slight twang to it? The batches I get are not pleasant to drink and taste all the same. I get no malt or hop character. Everything is dominated by this off flavor. So maybe it's not "twang" for me because people have success with these recipes and so far I have not. I've done refills, basic recipes, and a bunch of PMs and they all taste the same to me. I'm at a complete loss as to what's causing my issue. I would love to go all grain but if I can't make a decent beer with extract then how can I? Lol 

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29 minutes ago, MRB Tim said:

Man this is such a wholesome thread. Just wanted to add my $0.02 on the twang issue.

 

I don't think we've ever disputed that liquid extracts can tend to have a twang. Every method of brewing has its pros and cons, none is the "right" way to brew. The advantages of HME are that it's great for beginners to learn on, doesn't take much time, space, or equipment, and I think the smaller batch size is an advantage to a lot of brewers. The disadvantages, as I see them, are less control over some factors, darker color, and occasional twang. 

 

To my palette, some refills have more twang than others. I get more of it with Diablo than Long play, and more with Blonde than Weissbier. So, that's one factor to consider. Another is that doing a grain steep or hop boil can reduce it pretty drastically. I find that more important than temp or sanitation, in terms of the twang aspect.  

 

I would also just add that I've brewed hundreds of HME batches by now, and only had a few batches where twang was strong and unpleasant enough to impact my enjoyment of the beer. Given our policy of replacing bad batches and, I think, our flexibility, I find that to be a pretty low-risk proposition. 

 

 

Good points @MRB Tim

I enjoy creating different recipes in small batches and view the MB HME's just like a base malt and then build from there.

 

I look at my inventory and I'm pretty happy with what I have to chose from for a brew day. HME's, cans of LME's, and about 40-50 lbs of base and specialty malts. Lol, it's like making spaghetti sauce! Do I want to make it from scratch or do I want to use a big jar of sauce off the rack and add to that?

 

Like you say each has its pros and cons and I'm sure enjoying exploring them all and gradually getting much better as a brewer. This forum, it's resources, and helpful more experienced brewers are the reason. Also, maybe I have old tastebuds, but once I started with partial mashes using at least 8-12oz grains I haven't had off flavors or twang.

 

 

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19 minutes ago, youdontknowme311 said:

What does the "twang" taste like? Does it still taste like good beer but has a slight twang to it? The batches I get are not pleasant to drink and taste all the same. I get no malt or hop character. Everything is dominated by this off flavor. So maybe it's not "twang" for me because people have success with these recipes and so far I have not. I've done refills, basic recipes, and a bunch of PMs and they all taste the same to me. I'm at a complete loss as to what's causing my issue. I would love to go all grain but if I can't make a decent beer with extract then how can I? Lol 

 

That's what it is to me.  I've wondered in the past if some people might be more susceptible to it than others.  Kind of like how some people enjoy cilantro but others abhor it.

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30 minutes ago, Shrike said:

 

Those are a lot of reasons why I stick with HME.  I like doing two gallon batches; five gallons is just too much to work with, bottle, etc.  Plus, if I'm not too fond of the final product, I'd rather have two gallons to slog through than five.  The darker color doesn't bother me.  If it tastes good I'm happy.  And as I posted earlier, doing PMs and hop additions can cancel the twang pretty handily.  When I had family visit earlier this year they preferred some of the MRB brews we sampled to some of the craft beers we had while eating out.  That was a nice little ego boost.  :)

And to me, this is a fun hobby.  I spend a couple of hours every ten days or so bottling and brewing, and I get tasty beer as a result.  When I look at a setup like @Creeps McLane has posted photos of I think "Man, that looks so cool...but it also looks like work."  It's what he enjoys doing, but it's not for me; I don't want my fun hobby to become a chore.

That is the great thing isn't it? Having fun no matter whether you prefer small batches and minimal equipment or a larger set up like Creeps or yet a bigger bbl operation like kedogn! I seem to be getting more stuff, but doubt I want to get much bigger than 2.5-3 gal. batches, cause I like the variety.

Lol, that said I wouldn't mind a big enough kettle to brew 5 gal. and split it into two fermenters!

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3 hours ago, MRB Tim said:

Man this is such a wholesome thread.

 

I can't believe 3 pages into this discussion and no one has posted this yet!  Thanks for the memories @AnthonyC.

twang.jpg

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2 hours ago, youdontknowme311 said:

What does the "twang" taste like? Does it still taste like good beer but has a slight twang to it? The batches I get are not pleasant to drink and taste all the same. I get no malt or hop character. Everything is dominated by this off flavor. So maybe it's not "twang" for me because people have success with these recipes and so far I have not. I've done refills, basic recipes, and a bunch of PMs and they all taste the same to me. I'm at a complete loss as to what's causing my issue. I would love to go all grain but if I can't make a decent beer with extract then how can I? Lol 

It's a lingering sweet aftertaste that comes from extract, either LME or HME, can produce it. DME apparently tends not too, but I haven't used it before.

http://www.love2brew.com/articles.asp?id=487

Check out this link on twang and ways to get around it. BIAB is easy solution but a longer brew day. For me partial mashes with the craft refills and hop additions in IPA styles have worked very well.

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6 hours ago, MRB Tim said:

Every method of brewing has its pros and cons, none is the "right" way to brew

As cheesy or corny as it sounds, I’ve always felt that where ever you are is where you should be and that is the right way to brew.  I remember catching so much crap for doing Mr. Beer, yet I was right where I needed to be and that was, at that time, the right way to brew.  I am not one of those who have so much talent they can do anything. I am one of those kinds where I have to bang my head against the big green wall over and over and over again before It sticks.  Bottom line is every little step in Brewing has different things for different people and when you are there... it’s the ‘right’ way to brew, in my “been there done that” opinion. :) 

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17 hours ago, Creeps McLane said:

To quote my brew buddy “the worst beer ive ever brewed still got me drunk”. He told me that the other day and i couldnt have agreed more

For me, I don’t brew to get drunk.  My brother, way back in the day, tried telling me that I only brewed because it’s “a cheap drunk”. Then I explained to him all of the costs that went into all of the equipment that was filling my garage at the time.  

 

Ive said many times that if I could find, or brew, a 0.0% ABV that tastes damn like what it should if it had alcohol in it, I’d be happy (and possibly rich). On my cruise last month I mostly drank Heineken 0.0%. While a tad thinner, it tasted just like Heineken (for better or for worse lol). I drank a case and 1/2 at least the last couple days of that sailing lol 

 

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16 hours ago, Creeps McLane said:

I’m a freak for control and this isn’t a hobby that I’m ok with not putting the time into what I enjoy sitting down and enjoying on a daily basis.

My only thoughts on that are:  I get the control part.  It’s why I went AG. I’ve said many times that when I brewed my first AG batch all I could think was “If this sucks, it’s *all* on me!”  Luckily that first recipe went on to be the 1st award-winning beer from Manfish.  Second, if your plan is to take this away from being a “Neat Little Hobby” and to the professional

level,  just remember what I still struggle with, and that is “You’re tastebuds really don’t mean sh*t!”  There are a few, literally like 3, Manfish beers that I am personally not sold on.  Yet, well, people drink them and those kegs sell and fast. It’s a double edged sword really. 

 

 

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24 minutes ago, kedogn said:

There are a few, literally like 3, Manfish beers that I am personally not sold on.  Yet, well, people drink them and those kegs sell and fast. It’s a double edged sword really. 

 

Most of my recipes that I don't really like all that much sell very well, and all my pet favorites sit all-but-unnoticed, appreciated only by the true connoisseurs. I think I might just have bad taste.

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3 hours ago, Bonsai & Brew said:

 

I can't believe 3 pages into this discussion and no one has posted this yet!  Thanks for the memories @AnthonyC.

twang.jpg

Speaking of AnthonyC, does anybody know what happened? He disappeared.

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1 hour ago, D Kristof said:

Speaking of AnthonyC, does anybody know what happened? He disappeared.

 

He went the way of @MrWhy.  In other words, who knows???

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@ MrBTim.  Maybe we need a HME/Twang chart, based on brewer's experience.

That can serve 2 purposes:

one - to guide brewers that are twang intolerant towards beer they like better, and

two - to guide Mr Beer/Cooper's HME designers towards making them all less susceptible to twang.

You cannot get improvement so easily unless you get the feedback. Having lots of experience samples will be good.

 

I will say I have had twangy Oktoberfest before now, and more recently have been avoiding it, but this last batch I had a really fresh can (BB2020) and fermented at low temps and had a PM and did not add extra malt but used booster and I have no twang at bottling.

I have some Diablo plain in the LBK due to bottle next week. I will see how that is.

 

I do think having a score card would help.

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1 hour ago, Bonsai & Brew said:

 

He went the way of @MrWhy.  In other words, who knows???

I thought the going rumor is that they got caught up in a beer-shipping sting operation? :ph34r:

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11 minutes ago, Big Sarge said:

I thought the going rumor is that they got caught up in a beer-shipping sting operation? :ph34r:

For real though!!! @MrWhy had just done his first BIAB and he was messaging me about shipping some of it to me. I think i sent him something right? That double IPA he made the recipe for. And i never heard from him again. No beer made it to me, he never confirmed he received my package. Just disappeared. Strange

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16 minutes ago, Creeps McLane said:

For real though!!! @MrWhy had just done his first BIAB and he was messaging me about shipping some of it to me. I think i sent him something right? That double IPA he made the recipe for. And i never heard from him again. No beer made it to me, he never confirmed he received my package. Just disappeared. Strange

Strange indeed. It definitely sucks when a regular falls of the face of the earth like that. 

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I was just reading up on the comments, thinking if it doesn't seem to be controlled or affected by brewing temps, or the way the beer was handled post bottling, etc and several experiments have came about what else could be a possibility.  Then it hit me, something possibly overlooked in the in process, which we don't even put our beer into, or even use other than while making the wort!?  The can the HME comes in!   I am not saying its a sure thing, but how often do you buy can goods and they have an off flavor, or aluminum, steel, etc cans have a metallic odor and taste to them.  What if that flavor/odor is lending itself into the HME as it is stored or even warmed to get it out of the can?  Anyone think its possible or am I thinking way outside the box?

 

I did find this article on the subject of LME vs DME

 

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/how-to-brew/lme-vs-dme-which-is-best-for-your-brewing/

 

Which says this......

 

"While LME is said to have a shelf life of up to two years under ideal conditions (cool, dark and dry), it does have the tendency to experience degradation over time. The color of LME can nearly double when stored improperly and/or for long periods of time.
This darkening can be the cause of off flavors reminiscent to licorice, molasses, ballpoint pen and soap. Combined, these off flavors are likely the stale, “extract twang” people sometimes experience."

 

Those would be twang flavors for sure, and not fitting into the other category of other off flavors developed by high fermentation, poor handling, etc

 

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42 minutes ago, deuce2005 said:

I was just reading up on the comments, thinking if it doesn't seem to be controlled or affected by brewing temps, or the way the beer was handled post bottling, etc and several experiments have came about what else could be a possibility.  Then it hit me, something possibly overlooked in the in process, which we don't even put our beer into, or even use other than while making the wort!?  The can the HME comes in!   I am not saying its a sure thing, but how often do you buy can goods and they have an off flavor, or aluminum, steel, etc cans have a metallic odor and taste to them.  What if that flavor/odor is lending itself into the HME as it is stored or even warmed to get it out of the can?  Anyone think its possible or am I thinking way outside the box?

 

I did find this article on the subject of LME vs DME

 

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/how-to-brew/lme-vs-dme-which-is-best-for-your-brewing/

 

Which says this......

 

"While LME is said to have a shelf life of up to two years under ideal conditions (cool, dark and dry), it does have the tendency to experience degradation over time. The color of LME can nearly double when stored improperly and/or for long periods of time.
This darkening can be the cause of off flavors reminiscent to licorice, molasses, ballpoint pen and soap. Combined, these off flavors are likely the stale, “extract twang” people sometimes experience."

 

Those would be twang flavors for sure, and not fitting into the other category of other off flavors developed by high fermentation, poor handling, etc

 

You could be on to something. HME comes in a can, LME in a plastic jar, dme in a bag. I have never had a twang with LME. Ive never really done a straight up DME batch so i cant speak on that. 

 

It definitely is more present in higher fermentation temps in my opinion. But its not so much the fermentation temp as it is in the mash temp in which the HME is made. Extracts are usually made to cover many different styles of beer so they shoot for a mash temp somewhere in the middle of the spectrum so brewers can use them in a wider range of beers. I think coopers mashes at a higher temp than say for example briess. Possibly the hopping of the wort also contributes to this taste. 

 

Im going to nerd out for a second here.

 

when you mash between 130-150 you break down the beta amalyse enzymes (more coxplex) which get you a higher ABV and a drier beer but it takes longer. When you mash 154-167 you break down alpha amalyse enzymes. You get lower abv which means a sweeter taste and more body. This is why i usually mash at 152 to hope to get the best of both worlds depending on the style. Im guessing coopers is above 154, im guessing 157-160 for a quicker  conversion of the starches into fermentable sugars. Then they boil under vacuum pressure to concentrate the wort for us. That then denatures the enzymes and locks in that wort profile. If you were running a business wouldn’t you do the less costly and time productive way?

 

coopers is a giant in the beer game. They know what they’re doing. I dont doubt the same HME we use is the same wort recipe they use for their beers.

 

I do think the hops play a part in some way. Hops have sugars too. If you dry hop a beer youll get another Little fermentation after and everything that goes along with it.  Thats why breweries dry hop and let it sit for awhile cuz youll get things like DMS if you’re not patient. 

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Typically I have has fairly old HMEs, now I am mostly caught up and using HMEs within BB date. and some are really fresh (BB2020 e.g.) 

This is a factor that could go into the Twang chart I mentioned too.

it caqn't hurt to use fresh HMEs of course.

 

I also though have had some twang using Briess LME  e.g. I could only get Vienna extract in LME not DME. And I got more taste than I expected from it.

Very dark LME I had no problems with though even old.

So I have not kept rigorous notes, and I cannot point to any consistent factor.

 

The answer though is in volumes of data so back to the "twang chart".

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Well, I stand corrected on my brews at least, I had an odd like off flavor, hard to describe, tasted like a cidery yeast.  Sorry not good at describing off flavors.  I follow the directions 21 days in the LBK, about as long conditioning in the bottle, and then a few days in the fridge.  I have since changed my mind like many others.  I might have rushed the whole process.  I noticed one I drank today which has been bottled since sometime later August didn't taste half bad, and I was enjoying it instead of just choking it down.  I really think after reading the instructions carefully that my beer might have been still fermenting, as the beer had some sweet taste to it when I bottled.  So I might not have had off flavors at all, but really just normal quick fermentation jitters, and lack of patience!

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On ‎9‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 10:22 PM, Big Sarge said:

I thought the going rumor is that they got caught up in a beer-shipping sting operation? :ph34r:

I hope the Mr. Beer competition requiring entries to be shipped to Tucson is not part of that.  Maybe they only address the sting to those that make competitive beers lol.

The Federal Beer Investigators will be on it.😮

That dumb rule about shipping beer needs to change - it would be no commercial competition issue for limit of say 1 liter (or 2x 12 oz.)  per pkg.

 

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7 hours ago, Nickfixit said:

I hope the Mr. Beer competition requiring entries to be shipped to Tucson is not part of that.  Maybe they only address the sting to those that make competitive beers lol.

The Federal Beer Investigators will be on it.😮

That dumb rule about shipping beer needs to change - it would be no commercial competition issue for limit of say 1 liter (or 2x 12 oz.)  per pkg.

 

 

Don't worry. You're good, bro. Just never ship beer via USPS. Always use UPS and FedEx and never tell them what's in it. If they do ask, just say it's yeast samples. Technically, it's true and legal. ;) Cheers!

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