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Nickfixit

Guiness Irish Wheat Clone

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Since I liked this so much I am trying to make something like it.

They use the Guinness Stout yeast, The wheat beer is sweetish consistent with low attenuation Ale yeast.

I am saving yeast from a 6 pack - 2 more bottles to go, plan to brew tomorrow or Wednesday.

From Guinness website they use Mt. Hood and Amarillo hops, have 21 IBUs and 5.3 ABV. So not much IBUs to add and some citrous flavouring adds.

 

I also found this page . https://edelstoffquest.wordpress.com/2014/05/23/brewing-better-wheat-beers-with-herrmann/

Their most interesting comment since there is no way I can get their mash temp profile EVEN if I was using AG was

In his paper,  Markus Herrmann (TU-Munich, Weihenstephan) describes a mash schedule better suited for wheat beers to enhance the formation of Ethyl Acetate and Isoamyl Acetate.  These esters are mainly responsible for what is known as the “banana aroma” in Wheat Beers.  Formation of these esters requires Glucose.  During a regular mash only 10% of Glucose and 90% Maltose are formed.  The “Herrmann Verfahren” enhances the production of Glucose via Maltase, which is most active at 38C and denatures above 62C.

 

So adding more glucose will hjelp ester formation. I do not know how much glucose is in the BW extract but I would think not as mush as they make.

 

 

Plan is to use Bavarian Wheat HME

4oz Wheat DME

4 oz glucose

PM of Maris Otter, Flakes wheat, Wheat malt (figuring which kind) 4 oz each

Mt Hood  hop boil in grain water for 3-5 min to add 2-4 IBUs

Amarillo hop add 0.5 oz at flameout and leave in.

Try to under pitch with saved yeast to encourage esters (probably yeast from bottles will not be overpitching I expect it will be under.)

ferment at ~ close to 70 deg.

 

Any suggestions welcome.

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1 hour ago, Nickfixit said:

The wheat beer is sweetish consistent with low attenuation Ale yeast.

 

I would just note that most wheat beers are actually pretty dry, in terms of FG, but the low IBU creates the perception of sweetness. I love Amarillo hops with a wheat beer, I think this'll come out quite well, regardless of how close you get to the original. 

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1 hour ago, Nickfixit said:

So adding more glucose will hjelp ester formation

 

Forgot to mention! So will raising your fermenting temp a bit higher than normal. This approach, in my opinion, is better because there's less risk of off-flavors. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Nickfixit said:

Try to under pitch

 

That's another very common method, might be challenging in such a small batch

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5 hours ago, MRB Tim said:

 

Forgot to mention! So will raising your fermenting temp a bit higher than normal. This approach, in my opinion, is better because there's less risk of off-flavors. 

 

 

 

That's another very common method, might be challenging in such a small batch

 Tim, thanks for comments.

Well I will have to try those, for one - I could not find any glucose. None on Beer supply store and CVS drug store only had flavored, and none in health store. SO....

I will increase the Wheat DME to compensate.

For under pitching - I will just use what I get from the 6 bottles and hope. I bought a backup pack of WB-06 in case it does not take off. I have seen some slurry cell estimation methods but I think they had more than I do.

For sweetness, I was looking at yeast attenuation. Stout ale yeast --> 73%maybe and drier yeasts WB-06 -->  86% - drier than lagers.  Actually WB-06 seems to be pretty unique in that most other wheat yeasts are quoted in low 70's% atten.  by Beer Recipe Calculator.

I have the 6 bottle dregs now and I put a carbo drop in and about 1.5 cups water - and left it at ~ 70 deg. Lets see what it does overnight.

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Nickfixit said:

For sweetness, I was looking at yeast attenuation

 

Ah, I managed to miss the part where you weren't using the yeast that came with the refill. That's a much lower attenuator. I obviously need to stop reading so fast. 

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3 minutes ago, MRB Tim said:

 

Ah, I managed to miss the part where you weren't using the yeast that came with the refill. That's a much lower attenuator. I obviously need to stop reading so fast. 

Yeah, this is the Guinness Stout Ale yeast (they say) .

What is the refill yeast attenuation?

 

Limited info in the videos on the Guinness beer web page.

 

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Just now, Nickfixit said:

What is the refill yeast attenuation?

 

 

I don't have an actual number in front of me, but I'd guess that it's similar to WB-06.

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1 hour ago, MRB Tim said:

 

I don't have an actual number in front of me, but I'd guess that it's similar to WB-06.

Using  lower atten yeast then will make a difference in the taste I expect.

 

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Very cool experiment! I'm totally surprised that you had trub in your Guiness Wheat beer. I've never seen that in a commercial brew.

 

Also learning a bit in this thread about dryness and sweetness, and yeast influence on it.

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4 hours ago, Cato said:

Very cool experiment! I'm totally surprised that you had trub in your Guiness Wheat beer. I've never seen that in a commercial brew.

 

Also learning a bit in this thread about dryness and sweetness, and yeast influence on it.

Bottle conditioned beer I feel is a huge thing right now. I think when you’re drinking a commercial beer you just aren’t looking for sediment but its there in a lot of beers. Some home brews just have more than commercial beers. 

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3 hours ago, Creeps McLane said:

Bottle conditioned beer I feel is a huge thing right now. I think when you’re drinking a commercial beer you just aren’t looking for sediment but its there in a lot of beers. Some home brews just have more than commercial beers. 

Mine sure do have sediment even with cold crashing. I'll be interested to see if my new little fermenter with the rotating racking arm will make a difference. The fermenter has a conical bottom to catch the trub, so maybe it will help cut down some sediment at bottling.

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12 hours ago, Creeps McLane said:

Bottle conditioned beer I feel is a huge thing right now. I think when you’re drinking a commercial beer you just aren’t looking for sediment but its there in a lot of beers. Some home brews just have more than commercial beers. 

The Guinness Wheat beer bottles have sediment. Lots of sediment.

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3 hours ago, D Kristof said:

The Guinness Wheat beer bottles have sediment. Lots of sediment.

The question is - is it alive - or just for show? 

We will find out 🤓 did not see much happening yet though.

It sure smells yeasty though.

 

I have now 2 carbo drops in there  to try and get it interested in my mason jar.

 

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On ‎9‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 10:38 PM, Cato said:

Very cool experiment! I'm totally surprised that you had trub in your Guiness Wheat beer. I've never seen that in a commercial brew.

 

Also learning a bit in this thread about dryness and sweetness, and yeast influence on it.

Some have original fermentation yeast in there but some use a different yeast for bottle conditioning (and to stop people propagating proprietary yeasts)  so you cannot always be sure what you get. Several Belgian beers and most European wheat beers have sediment.

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On ‎9‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 6:38 PM, Nickfixit said:

The question is - is it alive - or just for show? 

We will find out 🤓 did not see much happening yet though.

It sure smells yeasty though.

 

I have now 2 carbo drops in there  to try and get it interested in my mason jar.

 

 

Well, I made the wort --> LBK this morning, pitched the pot of saved Guinness bottle trub yeast when it cooled a few hours later.

 

I hopeful but I am not too optimistic as I did not see any action from the yeast in the saving jar. But looking carefully with a MAGNIFYING glass and flashlight I do see some VERY small bubbles at the side of the LBK/WORT meniscus.  So I will give it 24 hours in 70 deg, ambient, and then put wheat yeast in if nothing is happening.

 

I might also have put too much Mt Hood in when I boiled for 3 min. The LBK was giving off a real hoppy aroma before I closed it. So I guess there is a trade off in what you get by putting a lot of hops in for a short time  (0.5 oz for 3 min) or a small amount for a longer time (1/8 oz for 12 min.). The recipe builder may calculate the same bitterness but the flavor/aroma will be very different.  Another experiment with too many variables lol.

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Well OK, I am impatient but still no signs of activity so I pitched the Mr B Wheat yeast that came with it (can dated best by 2020 so it should be good)

I am guessing they must have pasteurized the Wheat beer despite the sediment.

 

Note to Mr Beer...…… The Wheat yeast packets are still not labeled with a date code. Is the idea that they will always be good until the "best by " date on the can - so no need to date them?

If using after can best by date should yeast always be replaced as a guideline?

Ale yeast continues to be date stamped. (?) A different  supplier?

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I don't know what led you to believe that the Guinness Irish Wheat isn't pasteurized, or that it's carbonated in the bottle.  Wheat beer with yeast in suspension is normal, but it doesn't tell you that it's alive.

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4 minutes ago, RickBeer said:

I don't know what led you to believe that the Guinness Irish Wheat isn't pasteurized, or that it's carbonated in the bottle.  Wheat beer with yeast in suspension is normal, but it doesn't tell you that it's alive.

I was just being an optimist...……. so I had to try. And it smelled like live bread yeast.

 

But I can always try Wyeast Irish Ale yeast next time.

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1 hour ago, Nickfixit said:

I was just being an optimist...……. so I had to try. And it smelled like live bread yeast.

 

But I can always try Wyeast Irish Ale yeast next time.

The yeast may well have been alive.  The issue would be that it is in such small numbers that it would have to be built up in multiple starters to get an adequate cell count for pitching.  You stated that the "saving jar" had some bubbles.  Was that fresh wort that the yeast were put into or just the beer from the bottles?

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6 hours ago, BDawg62 said:

The yeast may well have been alive.  The issue would be that it is in such small numbers that it would have to be built up in multiple starters to get an adequate cell count for pitching.  You stated that the "saving jar" had some bubbles.  Was that fresh wort that the yeast were put into or just the beer from the bottles?

If I read @Nickfixit's comments correctly he used carbonation drops for his starter wort. If they were DME drops the gravity and cell count may both have been too low. If those drops were sugar the yeast may have been too old to recognize it as an energy source for reproduction.

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Thanks for the comments on yeast saving. I figured that any live yeast would grab onto any sugars if present. 

How would you go about resuscitating it if alive in small numbers? There was probably 1/16 inch sediment in the jar from the 6 bottles.

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Currently I have a good 3/8 inch of foam in the LBK, so we re off to a good start. It is smelling REALLY hoppy though. I may have  put too much in.

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10 minutes ago, Nickfixit said:

Thanks for the comments on yeast saving. I figured that any live yeast would grab onto any sugars if present. 

How would you go about resuscitating it if alive in small numbers? There was probably 1/16 inch sediment in the jar from the 6 bottles.

When bringing back yeast from bottles, the numbers are low and need to be built up to a level for proper pitching.

 

1st step is to make a small 1 cup starter of about 1.020 SG, add the bottle yeast and leave that go until you see visible activity and the yeast takes the gravity down.  This could take a day or several days.

2nd step is to make another starter about 2 cups in size and about 1.036 SG and add the yeast from the 1st starter to that.  Now you should have better numbers and in about 24 hours you should see that starter finish.

3rd step is to make another starter about 1qt in size and about 1.036 SG, add the yeast from the 2nd starter.  In about 24 hours you should have enough yeast to pitch a 2 to 2.5 gallon batch at 1.050 SG.

 

Yeast cell numbers will double about every 100 minutes but you are starting with only a few thousand cells.  You need about 100 Billion for a 2 gallon batch.

 

Note: Don't cold crash between starters, just pitch the entire amount into the next starter.  Your third starter will be nearly 2 qts in volume when done and that starter you should cold crash for 24 hours and pour the spent wort off of the top of the yeast.

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12 hours ago, BDawg62 said:

When bringing back yeast from bottles, the numbers are low and need to be built up to a level for proper pitching.

 

1st step is to make a small 1 cup starter of about 1.020 SG, add the bottle yeast and leave that go until you see visible activity and the yeast takes the gravity down.  This could take a day or several days.

2nd step is to make another starter about 2 cups in size and about 1.036 SG and add the yeast from the 1st starter to that.  Now you should have better numbers and in about 24 hours you should see that starter finish.

3rd step is to make another starter about 1qt in size and about 1.036 SG, add the yeast from the 2nd starter.  In about 24 hours you should have enough yeast to pitch a 2 to 2.5 gallon batch at 1.050 SG.

 

Yeast cell numbers will double about every 100 minutes but you are starting with only a few thousand cells.  You need about 100 Billion for a 2 gallon batch.

 

Note: Don't cold crash between starters, just pitch the entire amount into the next starter.  Your third starter will be nearly 2 qts in volume when done and that starter you should cold crash for 24 hours and pour the spent wort off of the top of the yeast.

Thanks, I have to try that.  I used carbo drops not DME too figuring it had a variety of fermentables in it.

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Today it smelled much more aromatic and less overall hoppy, or they melded. Should be good.

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So far, so good. Last Saturday, I made a starter of wheat DME 1.029 OG. Pitched the washed dregs from 6 Guinness Irish Wheat bottles. I definitely smells like the Guinness Irish Wheat they were sleeping in.

Tomorrow I am going to pitch into another starter with OG of 1.040 

1538783652576.jpg

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14 hours ago, D Kristof said:

So far, so good. Last Saturday, I made a starter of wheat DME 1.029 OG. Pitched the washed dregs from 6 Guinness Irish Wheat bottles. I definitely smells like the Guinness Irish Wheat they were sleeping in.

Tomorrow I am going to pitch into another starter with OG of 1.040 

1538783652576.jpg

I want some of that!!!! When you have enough. I can't find the beer in the store anymore.

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18 minutes ago, Nickfixit said:

I want some of that!!!! When you have enough. I can't find the beer in the store anymore.

They carry it in our local Total Wine store for 8.99 six pack. You have those near you?

 

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Yes. I rather like that beer. TW is where I got mine but last time I looked in the local TW they had none.

 

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8 hours ago, Nickfixit said:

I want some of that!!!! When you have enough. I can't find the beer in the store anymore.

If this works out a yeast sample might be possible. 

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12 hours ago, D Kristof said:

If this works out a yeast sample might be possible. 

Thanks. I will keep looking for more locally too. There clams to be some within 10 miles.

2 oz DME in 1/2 pint looks about right. 1.021 OG.

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14 hours ago, Nickfixit said:

Thanks. I will keep looking for more locally too. There clams to be some within 10 miles.

2 oz DME in 1/2 pint looks about right. 1.021 OG.

I found some - 30 min drive away. Tastes good and I saved the yeast in the fridge.

 

Should I wait to get all 6 bottles emptied before I try it with malt? or make the malt up and keep adding the yeast as I drink them?

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On Sunday, October 07, 2018 at 9:51 PM, Nickfixit said:

I found some - 30 min drive away. Tastes good and I saved the yeast in the fridge.

 

Should I wait to get alljaAs bles emptied before I try it with malt? or make the malt up and keep adding the yeast as I drink them?

Thus is how I did mine. I poured a couple ounces of distilled water into each bottle and recapped them and set the back in the fridge. When I had 4 bottles I poured them into a sanitized canning jar and kept it in the fridge. As I finshed the six pack I added the distilled water and added to the quart canning jar. The yeast settled and I poured off most of the beer tainted distilled water a couple times and replaced it with fresh. After that I again dumped the liquid above before pitching into the quart jar of refrigerated starter wort. After pitching I moved it into the dorm fridge where I have a cider fermenting. I keep the lid loose to let the CO2 escape. So far it seems to be working.

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You're wasting your time. At least, you're wasting your time if you're trying to use the Guinness yeast. If you're trying to brew a wild yeast beer, you're fine.

 

Any fermentation you're getting in the starters is from wild yeast and bacteria in the air.

 

Guinness used to naturally ferment their beers, but they stopped doing that years ago, and they now pasteurize and force carbonate all of their beers. Any dregs you collect will have no viable yeast.

 

There are beers that are naturally carbonated, and I've successfully bottle harvested yeast before, but if you're trying to harvest from a pasteurized beer, you won't get any viable yeast.

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So do they pasteurize and then just add "stuff" into the bottle for wheat beer effect - to make it look real?

The marvels of modern brewing...……….

 

I will say though D Kristof has a pretty good starter going for just a wild yeast float in. Seems hard to think that none of this came from the beer dregs.

Mine though is not doing anything like that yet. I put 1.020 fermentables on it and it is maybe a bit cool  - below 70.

I will leave it for a bit more before I give up though.

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Something is a happenin' after 3 days - I am not sure this was well pasteurized...…………………..

 

yeast bubbles20181011_140907[1].jpg.png

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If I was a sensitive kind of guy my feelings would be hurt. Wild yeast? I think not. Guinness' yeast? Possible. Another commercially available yeast? Also possible and perhaps more likely. Still it smells like a bunch of over ripe bananas in my dorm fridge. I might pitch one of these jars into an LBK this weekend. The jar on the left was agitated.

1539307322130.jpg

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So your earlier pic was after about a week? Does mine look active enough for 3 days?  I only made the malt 1.020  with wheat malt too, and the first couple of days were below 70.

 

Also bear in mind this is not super mass production it is from their pilotbrewery.

 

Wait? You have TWO jars of it?

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1 hour ago, Nickfixit said:

So your earlier pic was after about a week? Does mine look active enough for 3 days?  I only made the malt 1.020  with wheat malt too, and the first couple of days were below 70.

 

Also bear in mind this is not super mass production it is from their pilotbrewery.

 

Wait? You have TWO jars of it?

I really aerated my starters. I sealed the jars and shook them for a minute. Yours looks like mine did, but you could try shaking that thing. At this stage there can't be too much oxygen.

Yeah, I had a quart of starter and didn't want an overflow so I pitched the yeast into the quart, shook it, then poured half into a second jar. You can see the high the krausen was in those jars.

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Hmm, mine stopped activity so I measured the BRIX. 6.1 == 1.023 still.

So if it was fermenting it did not use much.

I am going to wash it and give it more malt and see if it does anything else.

Thanks for the shaking hint. I did shake a little but not much.

I will shake a lot next round.

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OK, I washed the dregs, and reapplied some cold boiled water and DME.  

We will see what happens.

 

AND I shook it well, 😄

 

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I don't post here often anymore. I usually only post when I see somebody trying something that can be problematic. I think this qualifies.

 

I posted on this topic earlier. Rick also posted (earlier) with similar information. 

 

Nevertheless, you persisted. 

 

Please stop this.

 

You're not propagating yeast from your bottles. There was no viable yeast in those bottles. There are beers that are naturally carbonated and have the yeast they were brewed with in the bottles. There are also beers that are pasteurized after brewing and then naturally carbonated with a different yeast. This beer is not either of those.

 

If you want to try to brew a beer with the yeast from a naturally carbonated beer, it can be done. But to do it, you need to use a beer that is naturally carbonated. I've done it as a learning experience a couple of times, but when I did it, I always checked to make sure that the beer I was using was naturally carbonated with the yeast that was used to ferment it and that it was not a yeast that was otherwise readily available. Why bottle harvest a Chico strain (US-05, Wy056, WLP001), for example (and there are beers that are naturally carbonated with the Chico strain).

 

Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to dissuade you from experimenting and learning new techniques. I'm just trying to guide you to doing so in a way that can lead to success.

 

I've bottle harvested yeast from Red Tail Ale and from Rogue. I only brewed a few batches from each. I did it mostly to prove that it could be done. I harvested from Red Tail Ale as a learning experience. When I harvested from Rogue, the PacMan strain wasn't readily available, so bottle harvesting was about the only way to get it.

 

There are lists available that will tell you what beers are naturally carbonated, and which of those are carbonated with the yeasts that were used to ferment them. I know they exist, because I found them when I was experimenting with that. I'll leave it to you to find more current lists, because I'm no longer interested in doing this. 

 

Find one of these lists. Get a few bottles of one of these beers. Try this same experiment with one of these. I'd suggest using at least 3 bottles. More is better, but IIRC, I was successful using 3. Sanitation is even more important when harvesting yeast than the brewing. Sterilize what you can and sanitize the rest.

 

If you want to see the difference in harvesting yeast from a naturally carbonated beer and a beer with dregs, but no viable yeast, try harvesting some yeast from some beers you brewed and bottled, adding some sugar at bottling time for carbonation. Watch what happens when you add the live yeast from 2-3 of your beers to some wort and let it sit a few days and compare that with the (in)activity of the wort where you added the dregs from the Guinness wheat bottles. That's the difference between live yeast and dead yeast. 

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Well, I rewashed and re DME'd it and it is showing activity I think. I may have a wild yeast in there as you surmise.

I still might try using it to se what it is - but I will taste the spent culture wort first to make sure it is not rotten tasting. If it is I will chuck it out.

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Earlier today I had a bottle of Anchor California Lager.  Like Anchor Steam, their lager is also a krausened beer.  Sure enough, there was a nice thin layer of sediment on the bottom of the bottle and my first thought was "I could culture that!"  Then I remembered this thread.  I'm not looking to trigger another guru-brewer backlash, but it certainly seems likely that this sediment may very well contain live yeast.

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/how-to-brew/how-to-harvest-and-culture-commercial-yeast-for-homebrewers/

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3 minutes ago, Bonsai & Brew said:

Earlier today I had a bottle of Anchor California Lager.  Like Anchor Steam, their lager is also a krausened beer.  Sure enough, there was a nice thin layer of sediment on the bottom of the bottle and my first thought was "I could culture that!"  Then I remembered this thread.  I'm not looking to trigger another guru-brewer backlash, but it certainly seems likely that this sediment may very well contain live yeast.

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/how-to-brew/how-to-harvest-and-culture-commercial-yeast-for-homebrewers/

I certainly don't know about yeast culture, but the mention of Anchor Steam strikes a chord . One time a year or so ago, I bought a six pack of Anchor Steam Bock. Ah, it was delicious and I never have seen it again, anywhere. Hate it when that happens.

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16 minutes ago, Cato said:

I certainly don't know about yeast culture, but the mention of Anchor Steam strikes a chord . One time a year or so ago, I bought a six pack of Anchor Steam Bock. Ah, it was delicious and I never have seen it again, anywhere. Hate it when that happens.

 

I have not started my quest for local Anchor Steam, but the gas station a quarter-mile away has the Lager so I grabbed that.  As for the question of which breweries pasteurize their product, there are a good number of craft breweries that do not.  Sadly, it appears that Anchor is not on that list -- if one is to believe everything they find on the Internet, they "flash-pasteurize" all their beer.:(

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I'm having a hard time with this.  Why would Anchor package krausened beer (i.e. actively fermenting), boast about it on their label, then flash-pasteurize but not filter their beers?

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8 hours ago, Bonsai & Brew said:

 

I have not started my quest for local Anchor Steam, but the gas station a quarter-mile away has the Lager so I grabbed that.  As for the question of which breweries pasteurize their product, there are a good number of craft breweries that do not.  Sadly, it appears that Anchor is not on that list -- if one is to believe everything they find on the Internet, they "flash-pasteurize" all their beer.:(

Makes sense for them to do that.

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