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SiriusDG

Paulaner Salvatore Clone

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Okay, submitted for review, my next experiment. I had a pure MB version of this...well, not really, it had DME and candi sugar...anyway, so now I am trying to match good grain additions to everything I do moving forward. I found a few clones online, put them into beersmith, converted to partial mash, and then scaled, and then force fitted that with what I already had (and brought ingredients for), and this is what fell out. Submitted to the borg for review and recommendations, hope to have this in the keg this weekend.

Salvation
---------
Brewer: David Gilbert
Style: Doppelbock
Batch: 2.13 galExtract

Characteristics
---------------
Recipe Gravity: 1.080 OG
Recipe Bitterness: 26 IBU
Recipe Color: 19° SRM
Estimated FG: 1.020
Alcohol by Volume: 7.8%
Alcohol by Weight: 6.1%

Ingredients
-----------
Amber DME 0.50 lb, Extract, Extract
Candi Sugar, Dark (Belgian) 0.22 lb, Sugar, Other
Crystal 10L 1.28 lb, Grain, Steeped
MrB. Booster 0.22 lb, Sugar, Other
MrB. High Country Canadian Draft1.21 lb, Extract, Extract
MrB. Mellow Amber UME 1.21 lb, Extract, Extract
Munich (German) 0.62 lb, Grain, Steeped
Two-row (Belgian) 0.50 lb, Grain, Steeped

MrB. High Country Canadian Draft1.00 oz, Pellet, 5 minutes
Saaz Czech) 0.25 oz, Pellet, 10 minutes
Tettnanger (U.S.) 0.25 oz, Pellet, 30 minutes

American Ale yeast 1.00 unit, Yeast, SafAle S-05

Notes
-----
Recipe Notes:
Put 3/4 gal of cold water in a pot. Put the grains in a hopsack, and put the hopsack in the pot. Bring the temp of the water to 150, then turn the heat off. Let the grains steep for 45 minutes. Remove the hopsack from the water.


Add candi sugar, dme and booster, stir till dissolved, and bring to boil. Boil past break.
Add Tettnanger hops, boil for 30 min, adding Saaz hops at the 20 min mark.
Flame out, add UME, HME
Fill keg with 1 gallon cold water
Add wort to keg
Top off keg, pitch yeast, whisk violently, pitch S-05.


David

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I love bocks (Salvator in particular) and I'd first say that your recipe sounds yummy and that I would be more than happy to be your taste tester (if only I lived a bit closer to Florida . . .)

I have no suggestions as such, but just out of curiosity, I wonder why you decided to go with the sugar (booster and candi sugar). It's a relatively modest amount in such a big beer, to be sure, but I might have expected you to go all-malt (Reinheitsgebot and all that) and throw caution to the wind as regards the full body and sweetness. Keep in mind, I'm one of the few on this forum that regularly enjoys the lighter bodied beers (Budweiser, 'standard refills' and all that) but, hey, this is a bock after all!

I know you are aware of the "controversy" regarding steeping grains like Munich malt. Munich malt, in particular, is sometimes considered steepable but more often not. Palmer "changed his mind" on that one between his writing of "How to Brew" and "Brewing Classic Styles". Of course, as we've discussed elsewhere, your "steeping" procedures are pretty close to mashing, so you'll likely be okay either way.

I assume you chose S-05 because you are fermenting in Florida and you can't really get down to lager temperatures? I think that's probably as good of a good choice as any. Bocks are pretty "forgiving" in that regard, I think, but the colder you can ferment (without having your fermentation hang up, of course) the more authentic it will taste.

Keep us posted!

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Great Questions!!

So, the sugar...so I added the candi sugar because, as I actually understand the history of Salvatore, it was actually brewed by monks, and likely had sugar in it, so I added it in an effort to maintain a bit of authenticity. Then, while reading about the flavor profile, I also came across a comment that said Salvatore was high in melanoidins, and I remembered that Eric said that was a component of Booster...so, a little melanoidin to try to match the flavor profile.

Mash vs Steep...yup, all over it. But, Beersmith left it in the partial mash conversion, and based on all our conversations, I opted to leave it in anyway.

And spot on with the yeast choice...although, I am trying a new cooler/frozen gel pack combo this week, and keeping the current keg at around 68 right now, which I am pretty happy with.

I will definitely keep you posted...eventually...

David

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And while reviewing my inventory and stock, I realized this was really close to what is already brewing, and so in order to keep the pipeline balanced, I need to brew something darker...so this will be in a few weeks, and my next brew will likely be this one. Feel free to comment on that also.

David

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With the intent of using what you already have, that looks like an extremely tasty recipe.

For a future version of the same basic recipe, a suggestion would be to swap in one full pound of light DME (or even a touch more) in place of the Amber DME / Booster / Candi Sugar combo (mostly due to personal preference of all-malt). If you do this swap, then you could use the Belgian Candi Sugar for batch priming at bottling time.

I'm actually getting ready to do a couple of recipes using the booster though too... it came with my initial kit and I just hate to let it go to waste.

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Also forgot to add to my earlier post... for a yeast on this one, don't be afraid to look into a liquid yeast... I have a strong Belgian fermenting right now that I used the Wyeast #1388 Strong Belgian Ale for. It would be a fine choice for your recipe and if you look at the temperature profile for it, it likes being fermented right around 72~74 degrees optimally.

I'm just up I-4 from you in the Orlando area... I feel your pain on the temperature control for our brews here in the Florida heat.

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SiriusDG wrote:

Great Questions!!

So, the sugar...so I added the candi sugar because, as I actually understand the history of Salvatore, it was actually brewed by monks, and likely had sugar in it, so I added it in an effort to maintain a bit of authenticity.

Historically you might be correct. (It's a long way from something I know much about.) Bock, apparently, dates to a time before the Reinheitsgebot. But the modern bocks - Salvator in particular - are definitely all malt.

Again, it's a small amount of sugar, and I'm no purist about these things. I was just curious. I've never used the dark candi sugar, but from its description, I imagine it would add an interesting flavor to a bock. The booster is a slightly different matter:

Then, while reading about the flavor profile, I also came across a comment that said Salvatore was high in melanoidins, and I remembered that Eric said that was a component of Booster...so, a little melanoidin to try to match the flavor profile.

You know, I think you might have misread what Eric said. Are you referring to this thread? He said that Booster "mimics the blend of sugars found in malt extract, minus the tasty caramelized sugars, burnt proteins, and melanoidins." What I like about Booster is that you can make a beer that has a lighter body and less malt flavor than an all-malt beer of equal strength. Needless to say (I think) I don't want all my beers to be light bodied and a bock would be an obvious example of a beer that I would want to be heavy, filling, and sweet. Yummm! Of course you can overdo just about anything. I thought it might be just that "fear" that caused you to throw a little sugar into an otherwise pretty bold beer. Again, it's hardly enough to matter much. Just wonderin.

I do like Jim's suggestion of considering Belgian Strong Ale yeast. It should definitely be up to the task of fermenting this big of a beer without quitting - thus reducing the worry about overdoing the sweetness and heaviness. My concern would be the rather obvious phenolic ("spicy" or, well, "Belgian") flavors you get from most Belgian yeasts. I'm not familiar with that strain and he is, so I'd probably just defer to his obviously better judgment. It might go great with a Bock. In any case, I use liquid yeast only as a "last resort", and for dry yeast (that ferments well in Florida), I'm not sure you can do much better than S-05. Just don't let it quit on you.

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bigdave3124 wrote:

My concern would be the rather obvious phenolic ("spicy" or, well, "Belgian") flavors you get from most Belgian yeasts. I'm not familiar with that strain and he is, so I'd probably just defer to his obviously better judgment. It might go great with a Bock. In any case, I use liquid yeast only as a "last resort", and for dry yeast (that ferments well in Florida), I'm not sure you can do much better than S-05. Just don't let it quit on you.

No doubt a true lager yeast appropriate to the bock style and fermented down in the upper 40s or lower 50s would be best. With the original post citing the intent to use the US-05 ale yeast, I thought of the 1388 as a potential alternate choice which could provide some of the notes more typical of a lager yeast while also providing a higher-than-normal optimal fermentation temperature range.

No phenolic or spicy flavors with the 1388 yeast at all. It has a bit of a fruity nose and a touch of fruit on the palate (initially) and finishes more on the dry/tart side.

No argument that you'll still get a great beer from the US-05 as well.

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Wow, thanx...I BADLY mis-remembered what Eric said. Hmmmm....and, at this point, I would much rather go all malt, unless I was making one of my Belgians. Soooo....

Kill the candi sugar, kill the booster, bump the Amber DME up to 1 pound. That gets my gravity right...but, that puts color (according to QBrew) at 14, and I am concerned that will be too light. I was really banking on the dark candi sugar for that color.

Second idea...Amber DME back to 1/2 pound...raise Munich to 1 pount, and change Crystal to 60L....now the numbers look right again. This is the final recipe then...

Ingredients
-----------
Amber DME 0.50 lb, Extract, Extract
Candi Sugar, Dark (Belgian) 0.00 lb, Sugar, Other
Crystal 60L 1.28 lb, Grain, Mashed
MrB. Booster 0.00 lb, Sugar, Other
MrB. High Country Canadian Draft1.21 lb, Extract, Extract
MrB. Mellow Amber UME 1.21 lb, Extract, Extract
Munich (German) 1.00 lb, Grain, Steeped
Two-row (Belgian) 0.50 lb, Grain, Steeped

As for yeast...yeah, I want this as clean and crisp as I can get it, so I was avoiding any belgian/wheat yeast, such as my favorite S-33. I have really bad luck with liquids, so I am pretty much hooked on Fermentis.

"Don't let it quit on you"...ummm, exactly how do I proactively prevent it from doing that if it wants to?

David

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SiriusDG wrote:

"Don't let it quit on you"...ummm, exactly how do I proactively prevent it from doing that if it wants to?


For one thing, make sure the yeast is fresh and pitch the whole sachet. To hell with any concerns about over-pitching. With a bock of that strength it won't happen. In fact, this isn't a beer that you want to try to set records for "economy" with, so I might even pitch 2 sachets. It might not be necessary, but it will not be too much.

Oxygenate well. I see that you already believe in that by the way you say "whisk violently" but this might be the time to actually let your arm fall off. (Not that it will really do any good. Once the wort is saturated, that's it. But do make sure to give the wort a good long stir. Wyeast website says 40 seconds of shaking and splashing will saturate a wort. I'd do at least that.)

Control temperature. Put the fermenter in a place where the temperature is nice and steady and, whatever you do, don't "change your mind" about what temperature you think would be good for this beer. Come up with a plan and stick to it. (Does it sound like I've ever done such a thing? Just sayin')

And if the best laid plans don't work? Let's say that after 21 days, the gravity is still over 1.030. You sort of have two choices. (1) Play it "safe" and go ahead with your usual procedures and enjoy your nice sweeeet and full-bodied beer (it is a bock after all) or (2) Go "radical" and pitch a "starter" with a bunch more hungry yeast. (It isn't as scary as you might think.) But we'll drive off that bridge when we get to it.

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So here is the first question that comes to mind. Pitch Two...okay, but would you pitch them both at once, or pitch one, and when krausen begins to fall, then do a light starter and pitch the other. Yeah, you have to open the keg...but I have done scarier things than that just to add hops.

David

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Well, I think that would work and I don't think it would likely cause any problems. What I don't know is whether it would be any better (or worse) than just pitching 2 sachets at once. It does sound similar to what those brewers do who try to make HUGE high gravity beers. I've never done it, though, and I just don't know.

In any case, I would hope that it wouldn't be at all necessary. The S-05 is a fairly good yeast for high alcohol levels. Two packs with proper aeration and temperature control should be fine. I don't mean to scare you. I just didn't want you to take anything for granted.

Oh, and a little yeast nutrient would also be a great idea - if you don't already add it as a matter of routine.

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Certainly staggering the yeast sachets a few days to one week apart would be fine... this isn't really that big of a beer though so pitching both at the same time should be fine.

Temperature control is key, as bigdave has already pointed out and since the brew is a bit on the larger side, the first 48-hours will prove to be challenging to keep the temps down... that yeast will be generating a lot of heat.

Also, as I had put as a suggestion in your other thread (Sammy Adams Doppel clone), you could very easily consider using the Fermentis Saflager S-23 here. It will give you a nice malt-forward, clean taste similar to a German Pilsner or Lager if you ferment it in the 61~63F range... again though, it's only a suggestion... I'm a huge fan of the US-05 too.

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Okay...Welllllll....after looking at the calendar and my travel schedule, I have decided to do this one first, since the Double Bock will need lots more love and attention, it will wait till after the holidays.

So I went to the LHBS to stock up; Between what they carry, and my inability to read a label properly (Munich and CaraMunich are not, sadly, the same) I now have a slightly refined recipe. I am pretty sure it will still make a great beer, it just may not be as close to Salvatore as I might could have gotten. Here we are...

Salvation
---------
Brewer: David Gilbert
Style: Doppelbock
Batch: 2.13 galExtract

Characteristics
---------------
Recipe Gravity: 1.079 OG
Recipe Bitterness: 27 IBU
Recipe Color: 26° SRM
Estimated FG: 1.020
Alcohol by Volume: 7.7%
Alcohol by Weight: 6.0%

Ingredients
-----------
CaraMunich 1.00 lb, Grain, Steeped
Crystal 60L 1.28 lb, Grain, Steeped
Light DME 0.75 lb, Extract, Extract
Maris Otter Malt 0.50 lb, Grain, Steeped
MrB. High Country Canadian Draft1.21 lb, Extract, Extract
MrB. Mellow Amber UME 1.21 lb, Extract, Extract

MrB. High Country Canadian Draft1.00 oz, Pellet, 5 minutes
Saaz Czech) 0.25 oz, Pellet, 45 minutes
Saaz Czech) 0.25 oz, Pellet, 10 minutes

American Ale yeast 1.00 unit, Yeast, SafAle S-05

Notes
-----
Recipe Notes:
Put 3/4 gal of cold water in a pot. Put the grains in a hopsack, and put the hopsack in the pot. Bring the temp of the water to 150, then turn the heat off. Let the grains steep for 45 minutes. Remove the hopsack from the water.


Add candi sugar, dme and booster, stir till dissolved, and bring to boil. Boil past break.
Add Tettnanger hops, boil for 30 min, adding Saaz hops at the 20 min mark.
Flame out, add UME, HME
Fill keg with 1 gallon cold water
Add wort to keg
Top off keg, pitch yeast, whisk violently, pitch S-05.


I will keep everyone posted on how this goes, hope to brew it up tonight.

David

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Brewed this up last night. That was a LOT of grain, looked like I was making porridge in the pot...chocolate porridge...so, I decided to sparge, since I felt like a lot of the goodness was not straining out in the end.

Beyond that, brewing was uneventful. The entire family was complaining that it smelled so good and there would be nothing for them to eat when I was done. Awwwwww... :laugh:

OG came in at 1.077, I think this is going to be darker than I intended, but I bet it is gonna taste awesome.

I did the pre-hydration starter for my yeast; pitched at about 75 degrees. Put it in the cooler with a large frozen gel pack at 10:30 last night. Checked on it at 8 am this morning...temp was 68-70, foaming like mad. I was shocked that the temp was so high, the other keg I did with cooler and gel pack was 64 the next day. That was S-04, this is S-05, and that was NOT prehydrated. And that fermentation did not take off as enthusiastically as I am used to. So, lesson learned for me...the pre-hydration is very effective. and, I need more gel packs.

Will update as things progress...

David

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Salvation, eh?

So is it fair to say that soon you will "take the cup of salvation" (Psalm 116)?

This gives a whole new meaning to something someone once said about "salvation is from the Jews" (John 4)!

(Sorry - couldn't resist. But I love the way you name your beers!)


:):)

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Well, aside from being a fairly literal translation of the original name of the beer I am trying to mimic...ummm, yes and yes.

As I have said, it is part of the fun of the hobby for me. Wait till you see the name for the Double Bock clone! :laugh:

David

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