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StretchNM

2 Row Barley

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I read in here that someone here said they add a little 2-row to almost every MRB recipe they brew. Can't remember who that was, but my questions are: Why and how much?

 

I'm getting ready to brew Voodoo and then Oktoberfest. Yes I'm aware of the recommendations by all to brew the recipe as instructed first, and then change it so as to know what changed and how, but I still want to know these things for general knowledge. And I may do it anyway!

 

Thanks

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1 hour ago, StretchNM said:

I read in here that someone here said they add a little 2-row to almost every MRB recipe they brew. Can't remember who that was, but my questions are: Why and how much?

 

I'm getting ready to brew Voodoo and then Oktoberfest. Yes I'm aware of the recommendations by all to brew the recipe as instructed first, and then change it so as to know what changed and how, but I still want to know these things for general knowledge. And I may do it anyway!

 

Thanks

 

That might be me.  I started out steeping four oz of carapils when brewing non partial mash recipes.  I did this to help with head retention and body, and also because the addition of steeped/mashed grains seems to alleviate or even eliminate the dreaded "extract twang".  Because of how it's malted, conventional wisdom is that there are no starches remaining in carapils that can be converted into fermentable sugars , so it doesn't add ABV.

Kedogn and I were discussing this on here and he linked to an article that showed through experimentation that almost 20% of potential fermentable sugars can remain in carapils after malting.  So I thought "Hey, that's potential ABV going to waste with every brew.  SACRILEGE!"  :D  So I decided to start adding some 2-row along with the carapils.  Two reasons for this:  first, during mashing, the enzymes in the 2-row will convert some of the remaining starches in the carapils into sugars, and second, because 2-row is cheap so why not?  😁  Is it really making a big difference?  Probably not.  But if there are potential fermentables going to waste, I figure why not try and take advantage of them.

So I now when I brew a beer that isn't a PM I mash four oz of carapils with two ounces of 2-row.  

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For similar reasons, I am tempted towards adding wheat DME to almost everything. It also adds head retention and a softness to the brew.

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20 minutes ago, Nickfixit said:

For similar reasons, I am tempted towards adding wheat DME to almost everything. It also adds head retention and a softness to the brew.

 

Thanks. How much do you add? And to you and @Shrike, how long do you steep those grains?

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Also, this is quoted from MRB's Carapils grains page:

Carapils Malt

This dextrin malt increases foam, improves head retention, and enhances mouthfeel and body without adding flavor or color to your beer. Use 1-4 oz. Can be steeped, but more efficient if mashed.

 

What is the difference between steeping and mashing? Aren't they both when you bring your water temperature to a certain point (i.e. 160F) and then let them steep for 1 hour? Isn't that mashing, too?

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3 hours ago, StretchNM said:

Also, this is quoted from MRB's Carapils grains page:

Carapils Malt

This dextrin malt increases foam, improves head retention, and enhances mouthfeel and body without adding flavor or color to your beer. Use 1-4 oz. Can be steeped, but more efficient if mashed.

 

What is the difference between steeping and mashing? Aren't they both when you bring your water temperature to a certain point (i.e. 160F) and then let them steep for 1 hour? Isn't that mashing, too?

 

The differences are essentially in whether starches are being converted to fermentable sugars or not.

 

When steeping, the grains being used have been malted in such a way that very little starches are left that can be converted, or they can't release enzymes that can convert any remaining starches.  Think of it as making a cup of tea.  The leaves in the tea bag impart taste, color, and body into the water.  That's what's going on with steeped grain.  They will affect the color, taste, body, and head retention of your beer.  What they won't do is increase ABV (or if any starches do convert, the ABV increase is negligible).  Examples of steeping grains include Carapils, Crystal -15, -40, -60, and -120, and Chocolate malt.

During mashing, though, grains are used that when heated in the water release enzymes.  These enzymes go to work converting starches into fermentable sugars.  Those sugars are then eaten by the yeast and converted into alcohol during fermentation.  The grains being used for mashing are sometimes referred to as "Base Malts", as they form the basis for beers.  Examples include 2-row, 6-row, Marris Otter, Munich, Vienna, and Pale.

So if conversion of starches is taking place, it's a mash.  If not, it's a steep.

 

In the MRB description you quoted, they say "Can be steeped, but more efficient if mashed" because any remaining starches in the steeping grains will be converted if mashed with a base malt.

When doing a steep, I go for 30 minutes.  When mashing I try to go for 45 minutes if I have the time.   I keep the temps between 150-155.

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The purpose of adding carapils is not to increase ABV, it's to add body and increase head retention.  

 

There are grains that are called Base Grains - 2 row, 6 row, Munich, Marris Otter, Vienna,  Wheat, Honey Malt, Biscuit, Victory ...  These grains need to have their starch converted into fermentable sugar.  

 

There are grains called Speciality Grains - crystal malts, caramalts, roasted malts...  These grains are already converted (i.e. pre-converted), further conversion is not necessary.  

 

Mr. Beer recipes that include steeping grains generally include some 2-row to aid in conversion of grains that are included, such as oats.  If you steeped oats by themselves, you would get no conversion.  Steeping with 2-row gives the conversion, because the enzymes in 2-row convert the oats.  

 

Good articles to read:

 

https://www.mrbeer.com/blog/post/partial-mash-versus-steeping-specialty-grains

 

https://www.mrbeer.com/blog/post/steeping-and-mashing-grains-101

 

 

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17 hours ago, StretchNM said:

 

 

 

What is the difference between steeping and mashing? Aren't they both when you bring your water temperature to a certain point (i.e. 160F) and then let them steep for 1 hour? Isn't that mashing, too?

Your questions have already been answered so this reply may be considered piling on, but I'm doing it any way.

If it's described as a specialty grain you can put it in cold tap water to extract its intended qualities (just as you can coffee or tea). Without looking it up I think Chromos calls for that (then again it might be something I just did after reading an article and not in the recipe directions). Some dark malts are astringent if you steep them hotter. When I am mashing I will always add black malts at the very end.

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29 minutes ago, D Kristof said:

Your questions have already been answered so this reply may be considered piling on, but I'm doing it any way.

If it's described as a specialty grain you can put it in cold tap water to extract its intended qualities (just as you can coffee or tea). Without looking it up I think Chromos calls for that (then again it might be something I just did after reading an article and not in the recipe directions). Some dark malts are astringent if you steep them hotter. When I am mashing I will always add black malts at the very end.

 

Yep, black malt is put in water at room temperature for a couple of hours before brewing.  That's a tasty recipe.

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i do a cold steep in the fridge using a sealed mason jar when using black patent or chocolate.  i let it sit overnight i think.. been awhile.

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On 5/27/2019 at 2:07 PM, StretchNM said:

 

Thanks. How much do you add? And to you and @Shrike, how long do you steep those grains?

Wheat DME? depends how much ABV I want to add. Usually 4-8 oz. For approx. 0.5 to 1% add.

Steeping I usually put them in for 30 min at between 150 and 165 (stovetop regulation is not exact.) BUt you also have to put in some regular barley that has enzymes and if a lot of wheat, maybe some rice hulls to help rinsing - especially if you add flaked oats too - it can get gooey.

So for wheat beer, I might use 4 oz Flaked wheat and 4 oz Pilsner grains and maybe 2 oz quick oats (breakfast cereal - no additives - just oats) or flaked oats.

 

For my next Hoegaarden clone attempt I will use 4 oz Flaked wheat, 4 oz Pilsner, 2 oz Belgian Aromatic - next week

For next Mandarin Wheat I will use  4 oz Flaked Wheat, 4oz 2 row, 2 oz inst oatmeal - the week after

 

Talking of Hoegaarden, My best attempt before used Forbidden Fruit yeast not WLP400. This time I will use  WLP720 Mead yeast which is claimed as equivalent by this link

http://homebrewforums.net/discussion/648/wyeast-white-labs-yeast-substitution-list/p1

I may have to warm it up a bit as my basement sits at 62-64.deg and this likes (marked on the yeast) 68-78 for Wheat/Belgian brews.

 

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Just to build on that.  In the examples above, showing 4 oz of flaked wheat and 4 oz of pilsner or 2 row, the conversion comes from the pilsner or 2-row, NOT the flaked wheat.  

 

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On ‎5‎/‎28‎/‎2019 at 5:35 AM, RickBeer said:

The purpose of adding carapils is not to increase ABV, it's to add body and increase head retention.  

 

There are grains that are called Base Grains - 2 row, 6 row, Munich, Marris Otter, Vienna,  Wheat, Honey Malt, Biscuit, Victory ...  These grains need to have their starch converted into fermentable sugar.  

 

There are grains called Speciality Grains - crystal malts, caramalts, roasted malts...  These grains are already converted (i.e. pre-converted), further conversion is not necessary.  

 

Mr. Beer recipes that include steeping grains generally include some 2-row to aid in conversion of grains that are included, such as oats.  If you steeped oats by themselves, you would get no conversion.  Steeping with 2-row gives the conversion, because the enzymes in 2-row convert the oats.  

 

Good articles to read:

 

https://www.mrbeer.com/blog/post/partial-mash-versus-steeping-specialty-grains

 

https://www.mrbeer.com/blog/post/steeping-and-mashing-grains-101

 

 

 

 

@RickBeer, thank you for the links. Both articles were helpful, but "101" was exactly what I was looking for.

 

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